THE X5 to have...

[TiAgX5]

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53

^ (The sunroof cassette weighs 35lbs and the non-sunroof sheet-metal weighs 5lbs less than the sunroof version. Also, the tow capacity is 6,000lbs, not 5,000lbs......

BMW info states the E53 3.0L MT trailer limit is 5000lbs, only the V8s are rated for 6000lbs. I guess you're making that face after SlickGT1 post? It's no suprise there are MT V8 X5s out there, these same engines were mated to MTs when installed in 5 series vehicles.

[Bayerische E53]

Originally Posted by dinan e39

If cars these days are so heavy, why do you not want the most power available in the model offered? With the X5, the mileage is essentially the same from the 3.0 to the 4.8. To argue otherwise is silly. When you say a proper transmission, what exactly do you mean? If a manual is so perfect, why are all manufacturers going away from a manual? It's all about preference for the individual. There's no such thing as "proper" or perfect.

As I said, I don't care too much about power. Unless you're going off-road (whether in the woods or racing), it is my opinion that big power is really unnecessary. Look at the big AMG MLs and the X5/6 M/// - who needs that kind of power to cart the kids/wife/groceries around? Plus, you need special equipment and a degree in nuclear engineering to do anything more complex than a god damned oil change. It's not my thing. As I said before, TO ME, simplicity is more important than power. Not hating on anyone with the "big" cars (except the people who buy them for the simple fact of saying "look how much power I have." Lame and unimpressive.) ... it's just not my cup of tea.

Originally Posted by Skyline

For one thing, automatics are getting better and better. Aside from the computer controlled clutchless manuals, (DSG, SMG or whatever; these shift faster than humanly possible), regular auto boxes are getting SO much better. More gears for better gas mileage, and they are much better at putting themselves in the right gear and anticipating your needs. Many conventional automatics now rev-match on downshifts, a big pet peeve I used to have. I drove a Carrera S a few years back with Tiptronic, (lacking this rev matching). I downshifted just before the apex of a corner, and the rear wheels locked up for a moment. I got quite sideways. No thanks. Today's Tiptronic would rev-match perfectly. From a performance and control standpoint, the advantages of a manual are shrinking, maybe already gone in many cars. All that's left is the extra hassle.

I wonder if so many V8 X5 owners would still be longing for a manual if the automatic were up to the best of today.... AND reliable.

Very good post. This is all true.

Originally Posted by epdarks

It seems that manufacturers are going away from manual transmissions due to consumer demand, not because the mfg's are pushing autos over manuals. As the autos and sequential manual boxes get better, as Skyline said, more people want them.

Now, in my humble opinion, the underlying force behind this demand is that people like "new tech", the latest and greatest, they are buying these new autos not only for the function but to be ahead of the technology curve.

As tech gets better and better we will reach a point of diminishing returns. In the example of SMG/DCT transmissions... they will hit a peak balancing fast gear shifts with the ultimate usability day to day.

As all consumer choices come in cycles, the "fad" of the high-tech SMG gearbox will blow over. What happened to just having fun behind the wheel, regardless if you are .1 seconds slower to 60 MPH?

IMO, manual transmissions will see a resurgence in the near future. With that, rare manual transmission vehicles will become more desirable in a sea of automatics.

Just a theory in my head, take it with a grain of salt, but I believe there will always be a core group of people seeking to purchase the good old fashioned 3 pedal manual transmission.

I agree with everything you just posted. It's the consumer rather than the car companies that is sending traditional things to the way side. I mean, let's get real here - the new BMWs have the ability to "tweet" from the iDrive. Get fuckin' real, will ya? Look at BMW's current customer-base majority - it's comprised mainly of the new generation of kids and soccer moms with nothing to do but gossip on facebook and twitter. What do you think BMW is going to do? They gotta out-sell Audi!

Seriously, I'm still trying to find the importance and need of a 500hp, 5,000lbs luxury SUV. Even more difficult to find is the importance of a transmission that allows that very SUV to shift in 150 miliseconds. The consumer loves saying "I laugh at your car...my SUV does 0-60 in 4.2 seconds - with a standard manual it would only do it in 4.5 seconds!" Again, I respectfully state the following rhetorical statement/question: "Get fuckin' real, will ya?"

People love showing off how tech-savvy they are, how cutting-edge they are, how cool their "stuff" is, how powerful their engines are, and how fast their transmissions are. In my opinion, these types of people are on the cutting-edge of showing off and fucking about ... that's all.

Yeah, I'm an old fart - so?

Again, not hating on the "big" cars. The X5M, for instance, is a stellar truck. It's just too much bling-bling and complexity for me.

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

BMW info states the E53 3.0L MT trailer limit is 5000lbs, only the V8s are rated for 6000lbs. I guess you're making that face after SlickGT1 post? It's no suprise there are MT V8 X5s out there, these same engines were mated to MTs when installed in 5 series vehicles.

Depends. Manual 3.0s were rated at 6,000lbs. I also believe that the Facelift autos got bumped up to 6,000lbs as well. You are correct, however, that the pre-facelift 3.0s were rated at 5,000lbs. Never the less, I towed my 5,000+lbs trailer with my pre-facelift 3.0 without incident over the course of 15,000 miles or so. The weight limitation on these cars is underrated.

[TiAgX5]

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53

Depends. Manual 3.0s were rated at 6,000lbs. I also believe that the Facelift autos got bumped up to 6,000lbs as well. You are correct, however, that the pre-facelift 3.0s were rated at 5,000lbs. Never the less, I towed my 5,000+lbs trailer with my pre-facelift 3.0 without incident over the course of 15,000 miles or so. The weight limitation on these cars is underrated.

BMW & Edmunds.com both show a 5000 lb tow limit on pre-facelift E53s with the manual trans. I am well aware of the underrating, I've towed a few boat/trailer combos over 7500 lbs, in the mountains no less.

[Bayerische E53]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

BMW & Edmunds.com both show a 5000 lb tow limit on pre-facelift E53s with the manual trans. I am well aware of the underrating, I've towed a few boat/trailer combos over 7500 lbs, in the mountains no less.

That's interesting. I was under the impression that the manuals were always rated at 6,000lbs. Hrm. Oh well, guess I was wrong as to that point.

You've towed some pretty impressive lash-ups with your truck on equally impressive terrain. I've towed my 5,000lbs+ rig through the Poconos (PA and NY) and the mountains in Tennessee without issue. I thought I was pretty cool, but towing 7,500lbs over the same terrain really says somethin'. I know that Whithidl yanks along his 8,300lbs+ Airstream but that's a bit more than I'd dare. Regardless, pretty interesting no less.

Nice to know you've got experience towing with the X. It really is a capable little truck.

[Roadkill]

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53

As I said, I don't care too much about power. Unless you're going off-road (whether in the woods or racing), it is my opinion that big power is really unnecessary. Look at the big AMG MLs and the X5/6 M/// - who needs that kind of power to cart the kids/wife/groceries around? Plus, you need special equipment and a degree in nuclear engineering to do anything more complex than a god damned oil change. It's not my thing. As I said before, TO ME, simplicity is more important than power. Not hating on anyone with the "big" cars (except the people who buy them for the simple fact of saying "look how much power I have." Lame and unimpressive.) ... it's just not my cup of tea.



Very good post. This is all true.




I agree with everything you just posted. It's the consumer rather than the car companies that is sending traditional things to the way side. I mean, let's get real here - the new BMWs have the ability to "tweet" from the iDrive. Get fuckin' real, will ya? Look at BMW's current customer-base majority - it's comprised mainly of the new generation of kids and soccer moms with nothing to do but gossip on facebook and twitter. What do you think BMW is going to do? They gotta out-sell Audi!

Seriously, I'm still trying to find the importance and need of a 500hp, 5,000lbs luxury SUV. Even more difficult to find is the importance of a transmission that allows that very SUV to shift in 150 miliseconds. The consumer loves saying "I laugh at your car...my SUV does 0-60 in 4.2 seconds - with a standard manual it would only do it in 4.5 seconds!" Again, I respectfully state the following rhetorical statement/question: "Get fuckin' real, will ya?"

People love showing off how tech-savvy they are, how cutting-edge they are, how cool their "stuff" is, how powerful their engines are, and how fast their transmissions are. In my opinion, these types of people are on the cutting-edge of showing off and fucking about ... that's all.

Yeah, I'm an old fart - so?

Again, not hating on the "big" cars. The X5M, for instance, is a stellar truck. It's just too much bling-bling and complexity for me.



Depends. Manual 3.0s were rated at 6,000lbs. I also believe that the Facelift autos got bumped up to 6,000lbs as well. You are correct, however, that the pre-facelift 3.0s were rated at 5,000lbs. Never the less, I towed my 5,000+lbs trailer with my pre-facelift 3.0 without incident over the course of 15,000 miles or so. The weight limitation on these cars is underrated.

It appears that BMW is not the car for you anymore. I am the individual that enjoys a lot of power and is not interested in fuel economy. I know that a 5000lbs SUV isn't going to handle like an M3. I've got 2 kids and don't feel the need to try and race the STI crowd. You need to tone down your language in your posts and realize that we all have opinions about what these cars are about. We're all different and that's what I like about this site. It's cool if you think your 3 liter 6 MT is the best out there, I respectfully disagree.

[Bayerische E53]

Originally Posted by dinan e39

It appears that BMW is not the car for you anymore. I am the individual that enjoys a lot of power and is not interested in fuel economy. I know that a 5000lbs SUV isn't going to handle like an M3. I've got 2 kids and don't feel the need to try and race the STI crowd. You need to tone down your language in your posts and realize that we all have opinions about what these cars are about. We're all different and that's what I like about this site. It's cool if you think your 3 liter 6 MT is the best out there, I respectfully disagree.

I never once insulted the whole group of V8 owners or even stereotyped the whole group V8 owners. I specifically picked on a certain minority - a minority that I never insinuated you or any other member on this forum was part of. Indeed, I did agree that the big stuff is cool. I also never said I thought my 3 liter was the best out there. I just said I prefer it over the V8 cars for very specific reasons. I do realize we all have different opinions. If you go back and read my posts you'll see that I use qualifiers like "personally..." and "to me..." and "in my opinion..."

I apologize if some of the dark satire in my above posts was not sufficiently explicit. I personally thought it evident that most of the content in my posts was not to be taken in a completely literal sense due to the satire and sarcasm. I also thought it evident that those posts were not supposed to be taken as a direct insult to the non-3.0i owners on this forum. If that wasn't as clear as I thought, I apologize. I was not trying to insult anyone.

For what it's worth, one of the things I too like about this site is that we all have different tastes. It makes for a variety of looks, DIY techniques, etc. which are great for ideas and for aiding in the decision-making process. And, let's face it, this place is also great for a little friendly back-and-forth banter, which is what I hope this exchange of posts turns out to be. The last thing I want is to make someone feel like I've deliberately picked them out and insulted them. I've never done that on this forum and I do not intend to start here.

[SlickGT1]

It's all good. I just wish the option of V8 was available with a 3rd pedal from the factory.

I'm a v8 person. I love the pull. I love seeing my wife shake her head at how childish I am when I blast off with a grin on my face. Oh and the sound. That sweet sweet sound.

I'm also in the city. So you would be surprised at how often you really need that power to overtake a cab for example.

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by Bayerische E53

In any event, I highly doubt the owner ordered it that way for weight's/performance's sake. I find it hard to believe that an enthusiast would be quite that daft. I'm sure he did it for simplicity. In a modern street car - any modern street car - I value simplicity over weight any day of the week. Forget fuel economy. If you're buying an SUV, you have no standing to complain about fuel economy.

There is all this talk about "drivers' cars." People think it's all about weight - rubbish; it's not - not in the 21st Century. In the 21st Century it's, at least, equally about simplicity and cleanliness. I say this because there's no such thing as "light weight" cars (i.e. "driver's cars" in the traditional sense) in the 21st Century that are actually usable (I don't want to hear any Lotus Elise talk; cars like that are far from usable). In the 21st century, "drivers' cars" have more to do with simplicity than with low weight. The new M3 weighs 4,000lbs. My brother just bought an E90 M3 stripper (cloth interior, no options, no sunroof); it weighs 3,700lbs. People might argue that that's a driver's car. In my opinion, it's as close as you can get to a usable "driver's car" in the 21st century. However, no matter how you cut the pie, a 3,700lbs "street sports car," no matter how well it handles, is just not a "driver's car" in the traditional sense.

I agree the owner probably ordered it that way for simplicity and the fact he wouldn't have to worry about it leaking.

I don't agree that if you buy an SUV you can't complain about fuel economy. My wife wanted another SUV, but I was tired of paying for premium fuel in our gas hungy 4.4i, so this time we went with a diesel that can get up to 29 miles per gallon. Fuel economy was a huge consideration when we we looking for her car. I refused to buy a 4.8i because of it.

The e90 weighs 3,700 pounds. However, the e92 strippers with carbon fiber roofs weigh in closer to 3,600 from those who have actually scaled the car. The upcomming M3 is said to be lighter than the current generation. Many car makers are lowering weight these days. Porsche, Audi and so on. Pretty sure the current f30 sedans are on par or lighter than the e90 sedan, so less weight seems to be important.

In addition, there are great, low weight drivers cars available these days. Look at the Subaru BRZ. Fantastic car, great reviews, decent modern amenities like nav, etc, and it only weighs in around 2,800 pounds!

[TiAgX5]

My disdain with porky "high performance" production cars has driven my sons and I to Dallas Karting Complex. Fastest rental karts in TX, 75mph Sodi RX 250cc on a .8 mile road course. Driving my 700hp, 3200lb Viper (4.5lbs per HP, sport bike power to weight) for over 100,000 miles in the state of FL has made me aware that the PD will do everything in their power to make sure you pay big for any vehicle operation that even look slightly spirited. Tampa PD almost towed my Viper during a traffic stop because the 5 point harnesses where not approved DOT!!! DKC rocks.

Things pick up halfway in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PklEywW4Fu0

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

My disdain with porky "high performance" production cars has driven my sons and I to Dallas Karting Complex. Fastest rental karts in TX, 75mph Sodi RX 250cc on a .8 mile road course. Driving my 700hp, 3200lb Viper (4.5lbs per HP, sport bike power to weight) for over 100,000 miles in the state of FL has made me aware that the PD will do everything in their power to make sure you pay big for any vehicle operation that even look slightly spirited. Tampa PD almost towed my Viper during a traffic stop because the 5 point harnesses where not approved DOT!!! DKC rocks.

Practice with Connor Wagner at Dallas Karting Complex - YouTube

That's the thing, 700hp Viper with steam roller sticky rubber or 200 hp 2,800 lb BRZ with skinny tires. If you are driving the Viper spirited you are going to draw much more attention than the BRZ. Plus, you have to really work the BRZ and that is where the fun lies. You don't even have to try in the Viper. Not knocking the Viper at all, but the 400 pound lighter, way underpowered BRZ would be considered more of a drivers car, imo.