Anyone removed clutch fan and replaced with electric?

[PropellerHead]

I think a lot of folks are looking at this as a HP gain when that is not necessarily the benefit I realized in my E39. Much like a lightweight flywheel- no actual HP is realized- the removal of a parasitic draw allows the engine to work with less effort because the clutch is gone. In my E39 over the past 8 years, this translated to faster trips to the redline. I found that I would actually hit the rev limiter even before the RPM gauge said I should be there.

Not only that, but the engine revs the *other* direction (down) much more readily as well. That may not seem like a nice thing, but consider how much more readily I can rev match with a manual transmission. The engine speed is much easier to manage manually.

Of course, few v8 E53's are going to be manuals, but the engine moving up and down the rev ranges more easily is still a benefit realized by the automatic transmission not waiting as long to shift when necessary.

I probably gained zero HP from the electric fan, but I can get *to* the HP I have much more readily after the install.

[PropellerHead]

Originally Posted by trader4

In my world if you remove a fan and you get to the redline faster, it's because you've increased the HP that's available to move the car as opposed to using that HP for the fan.

Well, then you need to spend some time studying parasitic loss. Here's a hint: It doesn't add or remove HP from a motor. The motor's HP is static. What you add or remove to its ability to deliver power determines the efficiency- or said another way- the motor's ability to deliver power.

Here's another example:

If you remove 500lbs from a car with a motor- like say a CF frame or roof or anything else- but do nothing to the engine, has it's HP increased? No. With less work to do, the HP that is there is able to move the entire thing more freely.

And maybe that's where you're head is. This 'loss' vs 'gain'. Must be HP, right? Wrong. Every motor head flies to HP bc they understand it. It's part of the marketing. More must be better. To increase performance, you must increase HP.

And that's simply not true.

Efficient delivery of available power has as much or more to do with this than any increase of power. It's the very basis of BMW's efficient dynamics.

Originally Posted by BMW ED Mission

BMW EfficientDynamics stands for the noticeable reduction of consumption and emissions with a simultaneous increase in performance and driving pleasure. Intelligent energy management and lightweight construction as well as aerodynamics and engine efficiency measures mean sustainable mobility is already standard in every BMW.

Note the absence of the word "horsepower." It's about moving things more efficiently.

It's why newer BMW SAVs (and others) have lots of lighter plastic body parts, not metal. It's why BMW went with V8 Nikasil blocks and magnesium bits in the 90's. Lighter means less work and more efficiency. Not more HP.

Another fine example, other factors also affect the ability of an engine to move a car: Environment. It's simply more difficult to move anything uphill (or with more resistance) than it is on a surface with less resistance. Does the engine's HP increase or decrease in this environment? No. It remains the same. It also remains the same in a huge headwind vs a tailwind. Is it odd in your world that a plane can make a reverse trip in hours less when travelling one way versus the other? Do mechanics replace the same plane's engines during the 45 mins from one trip to the next?

No. It's all ab the environmental impact on delivery of power, not a change in HP.

The same principles apply to drive train loss. Everything attached to the block, everything that the engine must use to deliver power are examples of parasitic loss.

• Throw lighter wheels or otherwise reduce unsprung weight on a car and get better acceleration. Did the engine's HP change? No.
• Change from auto to manual transmission. Does the engine's HP change? Outside of a programming change that would inhibit delivery for some other reason, No. Very simply, the application of the available power *does* change.

Originally Posted by trader4

If it resulted in that dramatic an increase, mechanical fans would have been gone long ago, with auto makers all desperate to meet CAFE standards. It would be low hanging fruit.

It interesting that you cite CAFE standards that became increasingly more stringent in 2011, 5 years after the E53. BMW was able to enjoy the same CAFE standards that had been in place since 1990 for the start of the E53 production. The combined standards changed in later E53 production and guess what happened? Fuel hungry V8's got electric fans. More efficient i6's used the same fan clutch found since 1988's E32.

Notice the change to electric fans in those motors where the MPG impact is most obvious? Thirsty V8's make combined CAFE standards a headache. Across the model line, we've seen other items that have moved to electric as well: The water pump is a fine example of BMW removing this parasitic (formerly belt-driven) loss to achieve better efficiency, even on the i6's. When do we start to see more electric fans? Why, leading up to the tougher 2011 CAFE standards, of course. The highest since 10 YEARS *before* the E53 (and 5 years *after*).

But then CAFE didn't have anything to do with HP. It has always been about MPG. And that, once again, has everything to do with efficient delivery of power, but nothing at all to do with increasing it.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

In my world if you remove a fan and you get to the redline faster, it's because you've increased the HP that's available to move the car as opposed to using that HP for the fan. Physics says that to accelerate the car faster requires more HP. That's what I mean by increasing the HP. And sorry, but I don't see it working, for the reasons I've outlined. The engine has two orders of magnitude more HP than the small amount involved with a fan. If it resulted in that dramatic an increase, mechanical fans would have been gone long ago, with auto makers all desperate to meet CAFE standards. It would be low hanging fruit.

Sorry to break the news to you but your world is a fantasy living only in your head. What has happened is you made the mistake of posting something entirely flawed and got called out. Since then you have attempted to defend the BS with more BS.

As an example---two orders of magnitude. What that means is the amount of horsepower the fan eats is 100 times less than the horsepower of the engine. First, you don't know either the HP the fan eats or the HP of my engine so it is impossible to know the order of magnitude. Further, assuming you are correct, you are endorsing exactly what we are trying to enlighten you about and don't even know it--there is benefit.

[PropellerHead]

Again I say:

The only thing that will satisfy the guy is a lab report. We're not going to give that.

It's a trolling exercise at this point. To engage directly is simply to forward the agenda to argue with no purpose or with no hope of gaining ground. It is the Internet of days classic.
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Back to the OP and others looking forward to useful participation.. Please do the work and use this thread to document what you've done and what your experience is. We don't care about dynos and we don't care about raining on your parade. It's your car. Have some fun, take some pictures, and tell us all about it.

I for one cannot wait to hear the real story of your experience rather than the theoretical ramblings of a divinely dissatisfied Google-fueled armchair physics flunkie.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by PropellerHead

Again I say:

The only thing that will satisfy the guy is a lab report. We're not going to give that.

It's a trolling exercise at this point. To engage directly is simply to forward the agenda to argue with no purpose or with no hope of gaining ground. It is the Internet of days classic.
-------------
Back to the OP and others looking forward to useful participation.. Please do the work and use this thread to document what you've done and what your experience is. We don't care about dynos and we don't care about raining on your parade. It's your car. Have some fun, take some pictures, and tell us all about it.

I for one cannot wait to hear the real story of your experience rather than the theoretical ramblings of a divinely dissatisfied Google-fueled armchair physics flunkie.

I should have taken your advice way back when. I did remember to provide a follow-up. Feel free to ask any questions about the install that I did not cover and I will be sure to update if I learn something or just to say all is well so you know it is, especially over the next 2-3 weeks.

If anyone decides to do the dirty deed done dirt cheap I will be glad to help any way I can. It is also fine to PM me if you would like to go that route.

As mentioned the install is straightforward but there were several problems that I had to overcome from not having anyones install experience. The reason I bring that up again is I am not sure I covered them adequately in the install summary.

As an example, if you look at the picture of the finished install, notice the wire covering going from the controller to the positive connection. In retrospect, I should have run it under that tube than over it, I think it would be less noticeable and a cleaner install, I will change that.

Another--I could not get the nut on the positive connection to engage the threads because of all the wires that go to that post. I do have other wires that connect there but I suggest that before you crimp any ends on the wires that you put all those that go to that post and be sure the nut will catch the threads. That was one of my oh s#$t times, I had to cut the connectors I used off find a larger connector that would take 3 wires to make it work.

And another, because I expected false starts I cut the wires longer than I needed so if I had to cut them again I could do so (some I cut 3-4 times) and some I ended up needing the extra length. I recommend you do the same as your X5 may be different and have some wiring routing that is breaking new ground. It is also important because there were no extra connectors that came with the fan or the controller I purchased so if you don't have them on hand it will be one of those unplanned trips to the auto parts store.

[PropellerHead]

Originally Posted by bcredliner

I should have taken your advice way back when. I did remember to provide a follow-up. Feel free to ask any questions about the install that I did not cover and I will be sure to update if I learn something or just to say all is well so you know it is, especially over the next 2-3 weeks.

I'm dying to hear how it runs outside of the garage!

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by PropellerHead

I'm dying to hear how it runs outside of the garage!

I will be making a short jaunt today with two stops. I will clock the miles. On Friday, I have an hour drive to make stopping for a couple of hours and then making the return trip. I post the results.

[TiAgX5]

Originally Posted by PropellerHead

I'm dying to hear how it runs outside of the garage!

You should hear how it runs with the exhaust dumps!!

Brian opened the dumps at cars and coffee on the 6th, NO WAY I would have thought OE BMW exhaust manifolds and dumps could sound so good! Sounds like equal length headers, no burps, hiccups or farts in the sound.

Reminds me of an ALMS Corvette.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by TiAgX5

You should hear how it runs with the exhaust dumps!!

Brian opened the dumps at cars and coffee on the 6th, NO WAY I would have thought OE BMW exhaust manifolds and dumps could sound so good! Sounds like equal length headers.

Reminds me of an ALMS Corvette.

Thanks James. I open them at least for a short period every time I go out.