Anyone in Northern California who needs to get there Valve Seals Replaced?

[Doru]

Originally Posted by BMW_TUNER

I have taken apart the intake and seen a heavy film of oil in the intake but no puddles. Is a film a sign that there are other sealing issues or will it be a puddle? My 4.8is gets pretty smokey after extended idle but produces no smoke what so ever at startup no matter the oil weight or temperature.

In my case, the throttle body was quite clean. I had no smoking issue at start-up, but it was heavy after the engine warmed up to operating temp, and had to idle at stop signs. Oil consumption was heavy at a rate of about 1qt/400 Km, whatever that is in miles, you would think it was an old 2 stroke engine.......

back to normal now.

[BMW_TUNER]

Originally Posted by Doru

In my case, the throttle body was quite clean. I had no smoking issue at start-up, but it was heavy after the engine warmed up to operating temp, and had to idle at stop signs. Oil consumption was heavy at a rate of about 1qt/400 Km, whatever that is in miles, you would think it was an old 2 stroke engine.......

back to normal now.

In you case was it Valve guide seals or another issue?

[Doru]

Originally Posted by BMW_TUNER

In you case was it Valve guide seals or another issue?

I believe it was the valve stem guide seals. They had a big opening where the stem is travelling, probably allowing too much oil to go by. I also talked to my indy (ex-BMW master tech), and he believes that actually the valve stem guides are the problem. So, after talking with him I believe, the OE valve stem seals get enlarged rather quickly (+/- 60 k miles or so), after which, the valve stem will start making more & more contact with the valve stem guides, at which point, if the valve stem seals are not replaced, the guides will take a beating and will also needed replaced. At this point, just changing valve stem seals is useless, because the guides are toast and need also replacing. The Elring Klinger valve stem seals, they not only have a heat & oil byproduct resistant rubber (Viton), but they also have a different design on the inside - beefed up and making a better seal on the guides, so even if you're not inclined to changed those goddam valve stem seals, you might do yourself a favor and spare the valve guides. I'm no expert, and I might be wrong, but it worked for me.

[Johnny_5]

Been reading everything I can as often as possible regarding the smoking issue with these cars and of course the common things would be CCV, gaskets, O-rings, etc... Its still a known issue on these cars that the valve seals are also a weak point and eventually will give. It does make sense for people who do the valve seals do end up replacing gaskets while they are at it as its right there and saves time and money to just hit it out all at once and in theory that could be the reason for the smoking cure is the gaskets and seals being replaced and not the seals but also keep in mind its also a state of comfort that the seals have been replaced as well. The way I look at it...if you are handy and able to do the job and since the valve cover gasket is going to get replaced anyways I would just hit the valve seals at the same time. That's just my theory and is why Im going that route. Just adding my 2 cents on things.

[McDonaldD]

Originally Posted by A B Able Truck

Historically, I'm with you all the way. But since AGA has invented their valve stem seal tool, I've had to adjust my repair recommendations in this matter due to the labor cost savings. Yes if there is oil in the intake - that needs to be remedied first. And yes, the crankcase needs to be sealed for the PRVs (CCVs) to worked as designed. But the things to consider are;
- If you're going to replaced your valve cover gaskets, you may as well replace your valve stem seals if this tool is available.
- In theory, the valve stem seals are as the valve cover seals in respect to a sealed crankcase system for proper ventilation function.

Sure, if you're in there, why not? But what I don't get: The smoke comes out of the exhaust pipes, no? Why not replace your headers, cats, oxygen sensors, mufflers and exhaust pipes? Oh, don't forget the chrome tips; there's a tool for that, too, no? I'm sorry for being a jerk but one may purchase any number of tools to replace any number of parts. People are attempting to repair their cars. They're not dabling in buying tools or replacing parts for replacement's sake. If you're replacing for replacement's sake, why not Start afresh? Buy the new F15 and move on?

I, too, fell prey to the "while you're at it" crowd. I replaced the coolant transfer pipe while replacing my upper engine seals. There was a useless tool for that as well...but thats another tale about why one should understand a part's potential for failure BEFORE assuming failure could, in any way, exhibit symptoms stated as the reason for said part's replacement. On the e53's N62? no. On previous versions, possibly? Anyway.

My comments about the valve stem seal fallacy narrowly apply to an engine that meets ALL of the following criteria:
- at operating temperature
- after a period of prolonged idle
- puffs/clouds of bluish smoke envelope the world behind you as you accelerate from the aforementioned state of prolonged idle.

My comments do not broadly apply to any of following:
- Pure white whisps, puffs, clouds of smoke - Congrats to the >99% that have found the dew point. My condolences to the unlucky <1% that have coolant making its way into their combustion chamber (and, likely, oil)
- bluish puff or cloud on startup - you have found the fabled valve stem seal issue. The automotive world and modern science would like to know, please, how you managed to torture your vehicle into such a sad state of disrepair. Please join the <1% in the coolant club as you have likely severly overheated your engine.

If your vehicle falls into the narrowly defined yet widespread blue-cloud-off-of-idle problem, continue reading.

Originally Posted by A B Able Truck

- In theory, the valve stem seals are as the valve cover seals in respect to a sealed crankcase system for proper ventilation function.

The valve stem seals do not contribute to the failure of the crank case ventilation system in the way you think they do. The seals expand with heat, not contract. This means, while hot, the seals are larger than they are while cold. After the engine cools, the valve stem seals shrink, allowing oil/air to slip past. If the valve stem seal were to fail, it would fail first while cold. Sure, a puff of blue smoke on startup may go unnoticed. Say you never notice the puffs of smoke on startup and the valve stem seal failure progresses to a point where they fail to seal even while warm/hot; they're just always leaking. This, you have asserted, is the point of failure that would cause crankcase ventilation failure. BUT it does not make the previous symptoms go away. It would smoke from oil leaking down into the cylinders AND from such a state of catastrophic failure that this new blowby path overcomes the vacuum in the crankcase. It would smoke on cold startup and hot startup. It would just smoke. ALWAYS. Yet this is not the case. The issue I, and countless others, have experienced only smokes at a very particular time: a cloud of bluish smoke after prolonged idle at operating temperatures.

My point is, valve stem seals cannot fail in the way you, A B Able, have stated without also exhibting the other symptoms. No oil-cloud on startup, no failed valve stem seal.

Originally Posted by BMW_TUNER

I have taken apart the intake and seen a heavy film of oil in the intake but no puddles. Is a film a sign that there are other sealing issues or will it be a puddle? My 4.8is gets pretty smokey after extended idle but produces no smoke what so ever at startup no matter the oil weight or temperature.

You should never have oil, film or otherwise, in your intake manifold. The intake manifold should be pristinely dry and free of ANY residue. Oil in your intake can only come from the PRVs/crankcase ventilation system failure. This is the failure that causes oil consumption.

Originally Posted by Doru

It's weird, because I had no oil in the throttle body, yet I had HEAVY smoking after more than 2 minutes idling. I also had an unusually high oil consumption.
As A B Able truck said, once you work on those seals, you "normally" would replace every seal....
But there are people who tried mitigating the smoking issue by only changing the VCG and related gaskets/seals, and the end was only a reduced tailpipe smoking result.....So I guess, there are situations & situations, and not a myth.

If you meant your intake manifold was clean, disregard the rest of this: Your throttle body will likely always be clean. The intake manifold, behind it, will be coated with oil. You'd have to push on the top of the throttle plate and then peer in with a flashlight. My intake manifold's plastic was supposed to be green but instead it looked black. You likely will not see pools of oil as the intake is quite deep. The reason the throttle body is clean while the intake manifold is smothered in oil is because the crankcase ventilation system bypasses the throttle body. The vents connect directly to the intake manifold: Above and below the throttle body.

[BMW_TUNER]

Originally Posted by McDonaldD

Sure, if you're in there, why not? But what I don't get: The smoke comes out of the exhaust pipes, no? Why not replace your headers, cats, oxygen sensors, mufflers and exhaust pipes? Oh, don't forget the chrome tips; there's a tool for that, too, no? I'm sorry for being a jerk but one may purchase any number of tools to replace any number of parts. People are attempting to repair their cars. They're not dabling in buying tools or replacing parts for replacement's sake. If you're replacing for replacement's sake, why not Start afresh? Buy the new F15 and move on?

I, too, fell prey to the "while you're at it" crowd. I replaced the coolant transfer pipe while replacing my upper engine seals. There was a useless tool for that as well...but thats another tale about why one should understand a part's potential for failure BEFORE assuming failure could, in any way, exhibit symptoms stated as the reason for said part's replacement. On the e53's N62? no. On previous versions, possibly? Anyway.

My comments about the valve stem seal fallacy narrowly apply to an engine that meets ALL of the following criteria:
- at operating temperature
- after a period of prolonged idle
- puffs/clouds of bluish smoke envelope the world behind you as you accelerate from the aforementioned state of prolonged idle.

My comments do not broadly apply to any of following:
- Pure white whisps, puffs, clouds of smoke - Congrats to the >99% that have found the dew point. My condolences to the unlucky <1% that have coolant making its way into their combustion chamber (and, likely, oil)
- bluish puff or cloud on startup - you have found the fabled valve stem seal issue. The automotive world and modern science would like to know, please, how you managed to torture your vehicle into such a sad state of disrepair. Please join the <1% in the coolant club as you have likely severly overheated your engine.

If your vehicle falls into the narrowly defined yet widespread blue-cloud-off-of-idle problem, continue reading.



The valve stem seals do not contribute to the failure of the crank case ventilation system in the way you think they do. The seals expand with heat, not contract. This means, while hot, the seals are larger than they are while cold. After the engine cools, the valve stem seals shrink, allowing oil/air to slip past. If the valve stem seal were to fail, it would fail first while cold. Sure, a puff of blue smoke on startup may go unnoticed. Say you never notice the puffs of smoke on startup and the valve stem seal failure progresses to a point where they fail to seal even while warm/hot; they're just always leaking. This, you have asserted, is the point of failure that would cause crankcase ventilation failure. BUT it does not make the previous symptoms go away. It would smoke from oil leaking down into the cylinders AND from such a state of catastrophic failure that this new blowby path overcomes the vacuum in the crankcase. It would smoke on cold startup and hot startup. It would just smoke. ALWAYS. Yet this is not the case. The issue I, and countless others, have experienced only smokes at a very particular time: a cloud of bluish smoke after prolonged idle at operating temperatures.

My point is, valve stem seals cannot fail in the way you, A B Able, have stated without also exhibting the other symptoms. No oil-cloud on startup, no failed valve stem seal.



You should never have oil, film or otherwise, in your intake manifold. The intake manifold should be pristinely dry and free of ANY residue. Oil in your intake can only come from the PRVs/crankcase ventilation system failure. This is the failure that causes oil consumption.



If you meant your intake manifold was clean, disregard the rest of this: Your throttle body will likely always be clean. The intake manifold, behind it, will be coated with oil. You'd have to push on the top of the throttle plate and then peer in with a flashlight. My intake manifold's plastic was supposed to be green but instead it looked black. You likely will not see pools of oil as the intake is quite deep. The reason the throttle body is clean while the intake manifold is smothered in oil is because the crankcase ventilation system bypasses the throttle body. The vents connect directly to the intake manifold: Above and below the throttle body.

I have removed and inspected and replaced CCV diaphragms, and inspected the breather hoses. Should I have it smoke tested to see if there is a leak? There are no codes and the only other thing that the car does is lurch when the air is on and the car comes to a stop at a sign or backing out of the garage.

[Doru]

So, in your opinion, the "valve stem seals failure" is hoax, and AGA & the owner are crooks, because of this statement (below vid)?, or they have no idea what they're talking about. Excuse me, but I trust them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=AE5PsbHgzM4

[DrumAdrian]

Originally Posted by Doru

So, in your opinion, the "valve stem seals failure" is hoax, and AGA & the owner are crooks, because of this statement (below vid)?, or they have no idea what they're talking about. Excuse me, but I trust them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=AE5PsbHgzM4

Originally Posted by Doru

So, in your opinion, the "valve stem seals failure" is hoax, and AGA & the owner are crooks, because of this statement (below vid)?, or they have no idea what they're talking about. Excuse me, but I trust them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=AE5PsbHgzM4

I was just about to post a link to the same video. I watched it again last night and now I'm planning to go take a trip and see their shop. They are close by and really seem to know what's up with BMWs.

I think he(All German Auto) is right, I also think there may be more to this issue than just what I know. I'll show him this thread if I meet him and ask him what his thoughts are.

[Doru]

Originally Posted by DrumAdrian

I was just about to post a link to the same video. I watched it again last night and now I'm planning to go take a trip and see their shop. They are close by and really seem to know what's up with BMWs.

I think he(All German Auto) is right, I also think there may be more to this issue than just what I know. I'll show him this thread if I meet him and ask him what his thoughts are.

I actually went to the dealer & different indy shops specialized in BMW's before I tackled the job.
The consensus was that the heavy smoking at idle is either due to failed valve stem seals, or failed valve guides, or both.
I believe that if this was only a sealing issue (VCG & all other related seals & gaskets), ALL these shops would have pointed to that direction, these cars are not new, and by now word would have spread around to change VCG & seals if smoking - not the case. It also seems that in the US (by the on-line research I did), the smoking issue points again to these 2 issues, and I think one will trigger the other if not addressed (valve stem seals start degrading, if not addressed they degrade further and allow the valve stem to be in contact with the guide, wearing it out).

P.S.: they also told me that if I can live with it, if doesn't bother me, and that the repair bill is xxxx $, and that it's cheaper to add oil in the long run....

[A B Able Truck]

McDonald D; (I didn't want to quote your post cause we'd be on page 10 in no time) You're really stretching it with the headers, cats, etc. - unless you've sucked down enough oil to plug them.

I guess my main point with the "you're in there anyways" comment was;
- The valve stem seals are what $20-$30 and the AGA tool can be rented or purchased, then resold easily. Wouldn't it suck if you went thru the trouble & expense of replacing your valve cover gaskets only to find out that you needed stem seals afterwards? (I hear valve covers gaskets are a pain on the N62 and you may as well replace your spark plugs while there) Yes, any repair can be up sold to include a large fry or apple pie with your order. (It's your choice)

In my situation, I'm done owning a BMW and can't wait to sell this thing. As soon as I fix my transmission issue and buff the headlights it's going up for sale.
And considering the fallacy inundating these forms as to oil consumption and stem seals, I'm hoping a potential buyer would be eager to purchase mine since the seals have already been replaced with the updated version. (Needed or not)