Home Forums Articles How To's FAQ Register
Go Back   Xoutpost.com > BMW SAV Forums > X5 (E53) Forum
Bimmer Tool Rental
User Name
Password
Member List Premier Membership Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Xoutpost server transfer and maintenance is occurring....
Xoutpost is currently undergoing a planned server migration.... stay tuned for new developments.... sincerely, the management


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 10-03-2014, 07:59 AM
Helihover's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 627
Helihover is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDonaldD View Post
If your v8 x5 is smoking, after prolonged idle: pull off your air intake and push open your throttle flap. It's wet with oil, no? That's what's causing your smoke.

Valve stem seals cannot EVER leak oil into your intake manifold. If Valve stem seals fail, they can only cause a puff of blue smoke on startup. Why? because oil SLOWLY drips down past the seal and into the combustion chamber. Starting the engine instantly burns off the tiny amount of oil and the heat causes the valve stem seal to swell and re-seal...that's it. Valve stem seals do not and cannot cause smoke after prolonged idling.

Please stop espousing the valve stem seal myth. The only reason the "repair" fixes the smoke issue is because your mechanic has to replace every other sealing surface on the top of your motor. The new gaskets renew your engine's vacuum seal. The EGR system needs a constant vacuum in order pull the PRVs closed. No vacuum? PRVs stay open and oil gets pulled into the intake manifold; causing the clouds of smoke that so many have wrongly attributed to valve stem seals. Properly functioning PRVs prevent oil from being sucked into your intake manifold. No oil in your intake manifold, no possibility of clouds of blue smoke after prolonged idle. It has nothing to do with the valve stem seals, themselves. Doing the same job, Sans valve stem seal replacement, will yield the same result. But, you don't have to do the entire job.

There are numerous other things that can be done that are infinitely easier. start identifying your oil leaks: vacuum pump? Oil pressure sensors? Oil filler cap? Dip stick o-rings? Adhering to BMW's oil recommendation of 0-40w? VANOS o-rings? Fix those issues and then, if necessary, move on to replacing the harder parts: intake manifold gaskets; valve and timing cover gaskets

Just please stop telling people to replace their valve stem seals.
Makes sence.

I've seen BMW dealer machanics on this site state bad seals will cause smoke at prolong idle. One even had a way of determining how long before they would last by timing how long it took to produce smoke.

I have seen this twice on my M62. I move it 15 feet to wash it which the cold engine only ran 30 seconds or so. Next start up a little puff of smoke. I believe this was due to cold valve stem seals not up to temp and not sealing so I understand what you are saying. This is the first time I've read an intelegent explanation of the other side of things.
__________________
2001 E53 4.4 Alpine White, Sports Package
2000 E36/7 2.8 5 speed Bright Red w/ a HT!
Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links

  #62  
Old 10-03-2014, 09:46 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego
Posts: 283
A B Able Truck is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDonaldD View Post
If your v8 x5 is smoking, after prolonged idle: pull off your air intake and push open your throttle flap. It's wet with oil, no? That's what's causing your smoke.

Valve stem seals cannot EVER leak oil into your intake manifold. If Valve stem seals fail, they can only cause a puff of blue smoke on startup. Why? because oil SLOWLY drips down past the seal and into the combustion chamber. Starting the engine instantly burns off the tiny amount of oil and the heat causes the valve stem seal to swell and re-seal...that's it. Valve stem seals do not and cannot cause smoke after prolonged idling.

Please stop espousing the valve stem seal myth. The only reason the "repair" fixes the smoke issue is because your mechanic has to replace every other sealing surface on the top of your motor. The new gaskets renew your engine's vacuum seal. The EGR system needs a constant vacuum in order pull the PRVs closed. No vacuum? PRVs stay open and oil gets pulled into the intake manifold; causing the clouds of smoke that so many have wrongly attributed to valve stem seals. Properly functioning PRVs prevent oil from being sucked into your intake manifold. No oil in your intake manifold, no possibility of clouds of blue smoke after prolonged idle. It has nothing to do with the valve stem seals, themselves. Doing the same job, Sans valve stem seal replacement, will yield the same result. But, you don't have to do the entire job.

There are numerous other things that can be done that are infinitely easier. start identifying your oil leaks: vacuum pump? Oil pressure sensors? Oil filler cap? Dip stick o-rings? Adhering to BMW's oil recommendation of 0-40w? VANOS o-rings? Fix those issues and then, if necessary, move on to replacing the harder parts: intake manifold gaskets; valve and timing cover gaskets

Just please stop telling people to replace their valve stem seals.
Historically, I'm with you all the way. But since AGA has invented their valve stem seal tool, I've had to adjust my repair recommendations in this matter due to the labor cost savings. Yes if there is oil in the intake - that needs to be remedied first. And yes, the crankcase needs to be sealed for the PRVs (CCVs) to worked as designed. But the things to consider are;
- If you're going to replaced your valve cover gaskets, you may as well replace your valve stem seals if this tool is available.
- In theory, the valve stem seals are as the valve cover seals in respect to a sealed crankcase system for proper ventilation function.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 10-07-2014, 12:12 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Reno
Posts: 82
BMW_TUNER is on a distinguished road
I have taken apart the intake and seen a heavy film of oil in the intake but no puddles. Is a film a sign that there are other sealing issues or will it be a puddle? My 4.8is gets pretty smokey after extended idle but produces no smoke what so ever at startup no matter the oil weight or temperature.
__________________
2003 540i Mtech 6 speed
1989 335is 20 psi.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 10-07-2014, 12:47 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 747
Doru is on a distinguished road
It's weird, because I had no oil in the throttle body, yet I had HEAVY smoking after more than 2 minutes idling. I also had an unusually high oil consumption.
As A B Able truck said, once you work on those seals, you "normally" would replace every seal....
But there are people who tried mitigating the smoking issue by only changing the VCG and related gaskets/seals, and the end was only a reduced tailpipe smoking result.....
So I guess, there are situations & situations, and not a myth. Good for you if this worked in your case, but I would not encourage people to believe it's only the gaskets & related seals to only find out after doing this job, that the smoking issue persists (and you have now to re-do the job plus another one). I would also not encourage people to think that the valve stem seals are the only issue for a smoking N62 bimmer. The situation has to be diagnosed properly. In my case, it took me a longer time, without using scanners etc (which probably would have expedite the diagnose), but by driving that thing for months and opening up/closing different components and checking the state of them, plus some other random "tree shade mechanic" tests.
__________________
Stable: e92is, e46 M54B25, e83 N52, e53 N62 - sold, e39 M54B30 R.I.P.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 10-07-2014, 12:52 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 747
Doru is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW_TUNER View Post
I have taken apart the intake and seen a heavy film of oil in the intake but no puddles. Is a film a sign that there are other sealing issues or will it be a puddle? My 4.8is gets pretty smokey after extended idle but produces no smoke what so ever at startup no matter the oil weight or temperature.
In my case, the throttle body was quite clean. I had no smoking issue at start-up, but it was heavy after the engine warmed up to operating temp, and had to idle at stop signs. Oil consumption was heavy at a rate of about 1qt/400 Km, whatever that is in miles, you would think it was an old 2 stroke engine.......

back to normal now.
__________________
Stable: e92is, e46 M54B25, e83 N52, e53 N62 - sold, e39 M54B30 R.I.P.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 10-07-2014, 12:55 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Reno
Posts: 82
BMW_TUNER is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doru View Post
In my case, the throttle body was quite clean. I had no smoking issue at start-up, but it was heavy after the engine warmed up to operating temp, and had to idle at stop signs. Oil consumption was heavy at a rate of about 1qt/400 Km, whatever that is in miles, you would think it was an old 2 stroke engine.......

back to normal now.
In you case was it Valve guide seals or another issue?
__________________
2003 540i Mtech 6 speed
1989 335is 20 psi.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 10-07-2014, 01:08 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 747
Doru is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW_TUNER View Post
In you case was it Valve guide seals or another issue?
I believe it was the valve stem guide seals. They had a big opening where the stem is travelling, probably allowing too much oil to go by. I also talked to my indy (ex-BMW master tech), and he believes that actually the valve stem guides are the problem. So, after talking with him I believe, the OE valve stem seals get enlarged rather quickly (+/- 60 k miles or so), after which, the valve stem will start making more & more contact with the valve stem guides, at which point, if the valve stem seals are not replaced, the guides will take a beating and will also needed replaced. At this point, just changing valve stem seals is useless, because the guides are toast and need also replacing. The Elring Klinger valve stem seals, they not only have a heat & oil byproduct resistant rubber (Viton), but they also have a different design on the inside - beefed up and making a better seal on the guides, so even if you're not inclined to changed those goddam valve stem seals, you might do yourself a favor and spare the valve guides. I'm no expert, and I might be wrong, but it worked for me.
__________________
Stable: e92is, e46 M54B25, e83 N52, e53 N62 - sold, e39 M54B30 R.I.P.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 10-07-2014, 01:12 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: California
Posts: 246
Johnny_5 is on a distinguished road
Been reading everything I can as often as possible regarding the smoking issue with these cars and of course the common things would be CCV, gaskets, O-rings, etc... Its still a known issue on these cars that the valve seals are also a weak point and eventually will give. It does make sense for people who do the valve seals do end up replacing gaskets while they are at it as its right there and saves time and money to just hit it out all at once and in theory that could be the reason for the smoking cure is the gaskets and seals being replaced and not the seals but also keep in mind its also a state of comfort that the seals have been replaced as well. The way I look at it...if you are handy and able to do the job and since the valve cover gasket is going to get replaced anyways I would just hit the valve seals at the same time. That's just my theory and is why Im going that route. Just adding my 2 cents on things.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 10-07-2014, 04:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 18
McDonaldD is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
Historically, I'm with you all the way. But since AGA has invented their valve stem seal tool, I've had to adjust my repair recommendations in this matter due to the labor cost savings. Yes if there is oil in the intake - that needs to be remedied first. And yes, the crankcase needs to be sealed for the PRVs (CCVs) to worked as designed. But the things to consider are;
- If you're going to replaced your valve cover gaskets, you may as well replace your valve stem seals if this tool is available.
- In theory, the valve stem seals are as the valve cover seals in respect to a sealed crankcase system for proper ventilation function.
Sure, if you're in there, why not? But what I don't get: The smoke comes out of the exhaust pipes, no? Why not replace your headers, cats, oxygen sensors, mufflers and exhaust pipes? Oh, don't forget the chrome tips; there's a tool for that, too, no? I'm sorry for being a jerk but one may purchase any number of tools to replace any number of parts. People are attempting to repair their cars. They're not dabling in buying tools or replacing parts for replacement's sake. If you're replacing for replacement's sake, why not Start afresh? Buy the new F15 and move on?

I, too, fell prey to the "while you're at it" crowd. I replaced the coolant transfer pipe while replacing my upper engine seals. There was a useless tool for that as well...but thats another tale about why one should understand a part's potential for failure BEFORE assuming failure could, in any way, exhibit symptoms stated as the reason for said part's replacement. On the e53's N62? no. On previous versions, possibly? Anyway.

My comments about the valve stem seal fallacy narrowly apply to an engine that meets ALL of the following criteria:
- at operating temperature
- after a period of prolonged idle
- puffs/clouds of bluish smoke envelope the world behind you as you accelerate from the aforementioned state of prolonged idle.

My comments do not broadly apply to any of following:
- Pure white whisps, puffs, clouds of smoke - Congrats to the >99% that have found the dew point. My condolences to the unlucky <1% that have coolant making its way into their combustion chamber (and, likely, oil)
- bluish puff or cloud on startup - you have found the fabled valve stem seal issue. The automotive world and modern science would like to know, please, how you managed to torture your vehicle into such a sad state of disrepair. Please join the <1% in the coolant club as you have likely severly overheated your engine.

If your vehicle falls into the narrowly defined yet widespread blue-cloud-off-of-idle problem, continue reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A B Able Truck View Post
- In theory, the valve stem seals are as the valve cover seals in respect to a sealed crankcase system for proper ventilation function.
The valve stem seals do not contribute to the failure of the crank case ventilation system in the way you think they do. The seals expand with heat, not contract. This means, while hot, the seals are larger than they are while cold. After the engine cools, the valve stem seals shrink, allowing oil/air to slip past. If the valve stem seal were to fail, it would fail first while cold. Sure, a puff of blue smoke on startup may go unnoticed. Say you never notice the puffs of smoke on startup and the valve stem seal failure progresses to a point where they fail to seal even while warm/hot; they're just always leaking. This, you have asserted, is the point of failure that would cause crankcase ventilation failure. BUT it does not make the previous symptoms go away. It would smoke from oil leaking down into the cylinders AND from such a state of catastrophic failure that this new blowby path overcomes the vacuum in the crankcase. It would smoke on cold startup and hot startup. It would just smoke. ALWAYS. Yet this is not the case. The issue I, and countless others, have experienced only smokes at a very particular time: a cloud of bluish smoke after prolonged idle at operating temperatures.

My point is, valve stem seals cannot fail in the way you, A B Able, have stated without also exhibting the other symptoms. No oil-cloud on startup, no failed valve stem seal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW_TUNER View Post
I have taken apart the intake and seen a heavy film of oil in the intake but no puddles. Is a film a sign that there are other sealing issues or will it be a puddle? My 4.8is gets pretty smokey after extended idle but produces no smoke what so ever at startup no matter the oil weight or temperature.
You should never have oil, film or otherwise, in your intake manifold. The intake manifold should be pristinely dry and free of ANY residue. Oil in your intake can only come from the PRVs/crankcase ventilation system failure. This is the failure that causes oil consumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doru View Post
It's weird, because I had no oil in the throttle body, yet I had HEAVY smoking after more than 2 minutes idling. I also had an unusually high oil consumption.
As A B Able truck said, once you work on those seals, you "normally" would replace every seal....
But there are people who tried mitigating the smoking issue by only changing the VCG and related gaskets/seals, and the end was only a reduced tailpipe smoking result.....So I guess, there are situations & situations, and not a myth.
If you meant your intake manifold was clean, disregard the rest of this: Your throttle body will likely always be clean. The intake manifold, behind it, will be coated with oil. You'd have to push on the top of the throttle plate and then peer in with a flashlight. My intake manifold's plastic was supposed to be green but instead it looked black. You likely will not see pools of oil as the intake is quite deep. The reason the throttle body is clean while the intake manifold is smothered in oil is because the crankcase ventilation system bypasses the throttle body. The vents connect directly to the intake manifold: Above and below the throttle body.
__________________
2005 X5 4.4L - 130K
- Premium Package
- Sport Package
- Rear Climate Package
- Cold Weather Package
- Multi-Contour Seats
- Heated Rear Seats
- Park Distance Control
- Navigation
- Premium HiFi w/CD Changer and Auxiliary Input
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 10-07-2014, 04:43 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Reno
Posts: 82
BMW_TUNER is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDonaldD View Post
Sure, if you're in there, why not? But what I don't get: The smoke comes out of the exhaust pipes, no? Why not replace your headers, cats, oxygen sensors, mufflers and exhaust pipes? Oh, don't forget the chrome tips; there's a tool for that, too, no? I'm sorry for being a jerk but one may purchase any number of tools to replace any number of parts. People are attempting to repair their cars. They're not dabling in buying tools or replacing parts for replacement's sake. If you're replacing for replacement's sake, why not Start afresh? Buy the new F15 and move on?

I, too, fell prey to the "while you're at it" crowd. I replaced the coolant transfer pipe while replacing my upper engine seals. There was a useless tool for that as well...but thats another tale about why one should understand a part's potential for failure BEFORE assuming failure could, in any way, exhibit symptoms stated as the reason for said part's replacement. On the e53's N62? no. On previous versions, possibly? Anyway.

My comments about the valve stem seal fallacy narrowly apply to an engine that meets ALL of the following criteria:
- at operating temperature
- after a period of prolonged idle
- puffs/clouds of bluish smoke envelope the world behind you as you accelerate from the aforementioned state of prolonged idle.

My comments do not broadly apply to any of following:
- Pure white whisps, puffs, clouds of smoke - Congrats to the >99% that have found the dew point. My condolences to the unlucky <1% that have coolant making its way into their combustion chamber (and, likely, oil)
- bluish puff or cloud on startup - you have found the fabled valve stem seal issue. The automotive world and modern science would like to know, please, how you managed to torture your vehicle into such a sad state of disrepair. Please join the <1% in the coolant club as you have likely severly overheated your engine.

If your vehicle falls into the narrowly defined yet widespread blue-cloud-off-of-idle problem, continue reading.



The valve stem seals do not contribute to the failure of the crank case ventilation system in the way you think they do. The seals expand with heat, not contract. This means, while hot, the seals are larger than they are while cold. After the engine cools, the valve stem seals shrink, allowing oil/air to slip past. If the valve stem seal were to fail, it would fail first while cold. Sure, a puff of blue smoke on startup may go unnoticed. Say you never notice the puffs of smoke on startup and the valve stem seal failure progresses to a point where they fail to seal even while warm/hot; they're just always leaking. This, you have asserted, is the point of failure that would cause crankcase ventilation failure. BUT it does not make the previous symptoms go away. It would smoke from oil leaking down into the cylinders AND from such a state of catastrophic failure that this new blowby path overcomes the vacuum in the crankcase. It would smoke on cold startup and hot startup. It would just smoke. ALWAYS. Yet this is not the case. The issue I, and countless others, have experienced only smokes at a very particular time: a cloud of bluish smoke after prolonged idle at operating temperatures.

My point is, valve stem seals cannot fail in the way you, A B Able, have stated without also exhibting the other symptoms. No oil-cloud on startup, no failed valve stem seal.



You should never have oil, film or otherwise, in your intake manifold. The intake manifold should be pristinely dry and free of ANY residue. Oil in your intake can only come from the PRVs/crankcase ventilation system failure. This is the failure that causes oil consumption.



If you meant your intake manifold was clean, disregard the rest of this: Your throttle body will likely always be clean. The intake manifold, behind it, will be coated with oil. You'd have to push on the top of the throttle plate and then peer in with a flashlight. My intake manifold's plastic was supposed to be green but instead it looked black. You likely will not see pools of oil as the intake is quite deep. The reason the throttle body is clean while the intake manifold is smothered in oil is because the crankcase ventilation system bypasses the throttle body. The vents connect directly to the intake manifold: Above and below the throttle body.
I have removed and inspected and replaced CCV diaphragms, and inspected the breather hoses. Should I have it smoke tested to see if there is a leak? There are no codes and the only other thing that the car does is lurch when the air is on and the car comes to a stop at a sign or backing out of the garage.
__________________
2003 540i Mtech 6 speed
1989 335is 20 psi.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:06 PM.
vBulletin, Copyright 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
2017 Xoutpost.com. All rights reserved. Xoutpost.com is a private enthusiast site not associated with BMW AG.
The BMW name, marks, M stripe logo, and Roundel logo as well as X3, X5 and X6 designations used in the pages of this Web Site are the property of BMW AG.
This web site is not sponsored or affiliated in any way with BMW AG or any of its subsidiaries.