Bought '09 E70, 3 weeks later catastrophic HPFP failure...

[ard]

It would be good for all of us to understand the real fix for a grenaded HPFP on the diesel- not just the 'BMW parts replacer' party line.

I'd like to think someone, somewhere can forward and reverse flush the injector, activate tie piezo stack and get them cleaned. Then document their performance as good or bad.


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[RDAvena]

Originally Posted by ard

It would be good for all of us to understand the real fix for a grenaded HPFP on the diesel- not just the 'BMW parts replacer' party line.
I'd like to think someone, somewhere can forward and reverse flush the injector, activate tie piezo stack and get them cleaned. Then document their performance as good or bad.
Report back

Sad to say the "parts replacer" line is the only way to rid the system of the grenaded HPFP bits. Fuel lines (hard and soft) have to be cleaned out if not replaced. Especially the hard lines being cleaned in an ultrasonic bath. The piezo injectors have to be cleaned but often the places cleaning/rebuilding the injectors charge close to the price of new injectors. Some have 'faked the funk' and have run injectors without cleaning them but eventually have problems 10k miles later. Same goes with the common rail. Fuel regulator, pressure sensor, temp sensor, in tank pump and aux pump should be replaced along with the HPFP.

Does BMW have the same stance as VW that the HPFP will eventually fail sooner or later? Extending a warranty to a measly 120K knowing full well the HPFP can fail even when replaced for an "updated" part? This failure is regardless of the fact that only the best diesel available along with lubrication additives was used during the life of the HPFP. Even after having the fuel tested for "water" and coming back negative, only later to be denied because the car was 1200K over the extended warranty period.

The only preventative fix that could be possible, if engineered for the BMW diesel engine, would be a 2 micron filter kit - 2MicronTech.com � Helping to keep your Common Rail VW alive!. This kit would save the effort of replacing and cleaning everything after the HPFP output. You would then only be replacing the HPFP and the 2 micron filter. Had I purchased the kit for the A3 TDi it would have been only the $650.00 for the new HPFP and ~$50.00 for the 2 micron replacement filter after the ~$600 for the 2 micron kit.

[Eric_S]

We just returned from Oregon, having been gone all week.

Shop reports nothing.

Friend who knows the GM went down and had a look. Said a few fine bits of metal were located in the HPFP. Inspected the tank and found just a few pieces as well. Assumptions being what they are, I suspect it let go somewhat catastrophically and appears to have only scattered a few bits of itself to the fuel system.

Obviously BMW says all parts must be replaced or no warranty. I have some toilet paper that has about the same efficacy as a warranty on replacement wear items, so I'm not too worried about that.

Forward/reverse flush is what I'm told, but I'll know more when I visit with the tech on completion.

The ongoing plan remains to replace the pump, run it as-is with the cleaned fuel system, and see how she is. Having a history with diesel trucks, I can't think of a rig, even in the common rail era, that would have complete fuel system replacements over a pump eviscerating itself. Not cost effective, nor would it be deemed necessary. Service Asst Mgr notes that the piezo injectors are apparently made with fairy dust and pot metal, and his impression is that anything less than a complete system replacement will grenade the injectors.

On that note, he also reports there are no places to bench test the injectors locally, and to send them out for testing approaches replacement cost. I'll be checking with our local Cummins regional service center to see if they have another opinion.

As of today, our foray into BMW vehicles may only last a couple months. She's unimpressed, and wants something reliable. I drive a VW Jetta TDI that's unbelievably consistent, and we never have a worry. Were hoping for something between that and our old Passat, but so far the BMW is really looking like a herring.

E

[ard]

Sigh. Glad you seem to be handling the proecss as best as can be done, give the distance and limitations

Personally I would not pay BMW retail prices for work then then comes with no warranty- seems a waste of money.

Just IMO

Originally Posted by Eric_S

Service Asst Mgr notes that the piezo injectors are apparently made with fairy dust and pot metal, and his impression is that anything less than a complete system replacement will grenade the injectors.

On that note, he also reports there are no places to bench test the injectors locally, and to send them out for testing approaches replacement cost.

Sending them out for testing approaches $3000?!?!?!? IMO idiot or liar.

Id take it to a shop that can/will pull the injectors and send out for test/flush.

In terms of reliability.... there have been very few reports of this kind of issue in X5Ds. Plus yours may have been misfueled and dumped. I know, for YOU the experience is 'unreliable', and hearing of all the others with no issues does nothing to make you feel assured. Just more unlucky. (Kind of like when the doctor explains how incredibly RARE the cancer is.)

One tech question: what is the failure mode if an injector has been fouled with metal? I assume it leaks, or releases particles into the chamber? I cant see if releasing particles back into the fuel system. Hence why would they void the HPFR with an injector fouled? Admittedly I dont know much about this. Too bad they wont test them....

Hope it works out

[Eric_S]

Hopefully a tech steps in with the trouble code they would anticipate in an injector failure.

From the list I have, I see rough idle codes and a misfire code. The rest are pressure related stuff, and subsequent failures of tertiary systems related to battery drain, attempting to get it into neutral when the battery was weak, etc.

We will assemble with the flushed system and find out.

The 2 micron filter may be put in the system, as that's pretty cheap insurance when some remnants may be coming through the return line to the tank.

Particles inbound from the tank will hit the filter. No particles should have made it from filter to HPFP. Downstream of the pump, all contact points are metal, and there isn't a magnetic ferrous issue here. If it goes to the rail, it's either going to the return or the injectors. The injectors won't push metal, so they're essentially a binary system, it works or it doesn't. If it hits the return lines, it goes back to the tank, where sedimentation and filters protect the inbound, as above.

After giving it some thought, I really can't see the point in replacing a hard line or putting it in the ultrasonic. Contamination would be a good reason to do those things, but that's in an organic contamination example, not a particulate. Diesel does a good job of lubricating metal parts, and flushing would be efficient at dislodging metallics that may be 'stuck' to diesel. An ultrasonic wouldn't do much other than make some extra work and introduce potential contaminants unless the ultrasonic solution was diesel itself.

But what do I know...

E

[RDAvena]

Eric,

Not so much of a what do you know, but more of a spitball approach to the bullshit I had to put up with on the audi tdi.

The incessant "all parts that touch diesel must be super clean" or "you have to replace EVERYTHING" mantra that I received from the tdi forums. Even a hint of wanting to clean and reuse the in-tank pump led to a cry of shame. This is what led to my supercleaning all of my stock lines and replacing the stock injectors with a used set of a 2009 jetta tdi.

Only to be told later by a cummins guy you could have gotten by with just replacing the HPFP and the FPR. His quote "It's only diesel, not rocket science."

[Eric_S]

Makes sense RD.

I'm in contact with a diesel specialty shop here in town that says they have the Piezo testing equipment. Contacted dealer today and they say $436 to remove the injectors for me and I pick them up and run them to the shop.

However, the tech that is assigned to the vehicle is off today so the soonest it could be done is tomorrow, when I'm on shift (24 hour shifts, can't do anything on shift days). Tech says in the notes it should be reassembled and ready by midweek, so I've decided to have them reassemble the rig, fire it up, and see what fault codes crop up when she's running again.

Once it is out of the shop, I may just run it over and pull the injectors at the diesel shop myself/with them. Only need the one custom tool, the flexy injector removal wrench, and they may have it. Hopes are for 6 good injectors, and really hoping we don't have to re-rack the whole motor.

Did contact our regional Cummins/Detroit shop about piezo injectors. He stated that they stopped bench testing them altogether, don't rebuild, or mess with them at all. If the new OTR diesel motors have an injector-related code, they just replace the injector at $500 a pop.

C'est la vie.

E

[Eric_S]

HPFP is in place as of yesterday.

Service tech attempted to fire the vehicle up, reports it was cranking but not firing, though it did sputter a few times. While cranking, he said it sounded like it was coming under load.

Asked further what was the issues noted, he states he pulled all the associated lines from the HPFP, back flushed the fuel line, back flushed the return, new fuel pump. Found some metal shavings in the fuel filter, which I would assume came from secondary cranking and some of the flushing procedures. Essentially we now know there are only shavings in the tank, making it a settling pond.

Had the tech pull the injectors (they charge $436 to remove injectors...), they're sitting on the SA's desk currently where I will pick them up tomorrow and take them to a local diesel truck shop and have them bench test, then rebuild as necessary. Hoping to keep the entire injector rack cost at about the price of a single new injector.

Waiting on SA to give me the prices of all high pressure fuel equipment, including the high pressure line to the rail, the common rail itself, the injector hard lines, and any other fiddly bits. Spoke with a fleet tech that takes care of DOT trucks, and he said he hasn't ever had success flushing high pressure metal lines, and has cost himself some extra injectors in the past, so I will probably replace those items as well. Obviously will price against indy and make it a little cheaper.

Will keep everyone abreast of what the injector rebuild situation turns out to be.

E

[ard]

Thanks for updating and thanks for being a groundbreaker on this... sucks.

[smassey321]

Originally Posted by Eric_S

HPFP is in place as of yesterday.

Service tech attempted to fire the vehicle up, reports it was cranking but not firing, though it did sputter a few times. While cranking, he said it sounded like it was coming under load.



E

Just FYI, sometimes you need to crank for 2+ minutes before a diesel will fire after something like this. There are a few posts about people doing odd things to get the pump going the first time. Good luck with it.