ML 63 amg drive vs E70

[X5audi]

Originally Posted by AVB-AMG

I admit that I am one of the few aficionados for whom more horse power really is more desirable, allowing for much quicker acceleration and the primal masculine thrill that results from it.

"Few?" Hardly. If there's any place where you'll find a lot of people who love to go fast, it's a BMW fan forum.

And I am among them My next car will most likely enjoy sub 5-sec 0-60 times.

As far as comparison of each vehicle's "exhaust note", the ML63 AMG wins hands down, IMHO, (not....!). Go to YouTube and search for ML63 AMG and you will find several videos with audio of its sweet gutteral exhaust sounds, both stock and modified.

Well, of course. But I was saying, in general, the X5 4.8i has a lovely exhaust note. On par with the ML550's at the least.

When talking about dynamics, I was mostly referring to a normal ML (350 or 550), not the AMG. It's not the fairest thing to compare a purpose-built performance SUV to a larger SUV built to balance comfort, versatility and performance in one tidy package.

My X5 was about $65,000 before taxes. It has everything I could possibly need, very well-equipped. I would be surprised to see anyone with an $84,000 E70. At that level you may as well get a Range Rover.

One question I have to ask: if you're so into performance, why do you have an SUV? There are better performance cars than the ML63 at the price. M5, E63, RS4, Carrera S, slightly-used Maserati Quattroporte, to name a few. Are you simply into trucks?

Something tells me advanced hybrids won't be coming from the Germans any time soon--perhaps diesel-hybrids, with the emphasis on the diesel. Such diesel cars as the 335d, A5 3.0TDI, E320 Bluetec and others are simply fantastic in any way you can imagine. I assume you know a fair amount about modern diesels?

And don't worry about the smilies. We all do them, we're all dorks here.

[AVB-AMG]

Thanks for your response X5audi. I see that you are a night owl as well….

A couple of comments in response…

Range Rover - While I like the aesthetics of the Range Rover and Range Rover Sport, the poor build quality of the mechanical aspects of these vehicles over the past several years has made most knowledgeable care buyers very leery about buying or leasing them. Especially when one is about to spend $85K - $100K on a vehicle.

Am “I simply into trucks?” Yes. I do like SAV’s (trucks), having had two of them (BMW X5’s) over a six year period. At the same time I also had an ’04 M-B E55 AMG which totally corrupted me towards truly enjoying brute acceleration capability. Last year, when the leases were ending on the most recent X5 and E55, I decided that I wanted my next daily driver to be more functional than the E55, while not sacrificing the performance capability. Also, my wife wanted to get a smaller car that would be fast, fun, reliable and easy to park. The result was her ’07 BMW 335ci with the Sport Package. That meant for my vehicle, which would be a daily driver, I had to take into account our other vehicle needs, as well as my desires. It had to be practical, (well ok sort of practical….), functional and fun. Specifically, it had to have all of the following:

· A vehicle that I think looks very good (obviously a very personal opinion) and one that you do not see all the time. I appreciate a certain level of uniqueness of the vehicles I drive. (That is part of the reason I added the full Aero Kits to both of my previous X5's.)

· All-wheel drive for the approx. 14 days of snow covered roads here in the Northeast. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that my ML63’s 20” wheels and OEM Continental tires were actually able to work ok (slow driving), on light snow covered roads. (I have no illusions that they would work in 6” or more of snow covered roads, realizing that I would really need to have a second set of narrower 18” wheels fitted with true snow tires to use the vehicle).

· Enough space to accommodate my wife’s and my luggage when we travel around the eastern seaboard on vacation. That means two (2) cart-size golf club bags, our luggage which usually includes four (4) suitcases / garment bags of varying sizes, one cooler and one case of wine, and any other stuff that for whatever reason we want to also bring along for God only knows why…. (This means we need to utilize the entire back seat area as well as the cargo area).

· A high, (or higher compared to a regular car), driver’s seating position for better road visibility.

· Acceleration capability of 0-60 mph in under 5 seconds.

· Some form of satellite-based communication system for its safety value.

· Solid build quality.

· Good Dealership attention and service

I was willing to sacrifice good gas mileage. That decision is and will continue to be an expensive one…. These reasons really narrowed down my consideration to the offerings from BMW and Mercedes-Benz and specifically the X5 and ML63.

Modern diesel engines. I do know about them, their upcoming improvements to be able to be legal in all 50 states and as a result do like them. I have rented several vehicles in Europe in the past couple of years with diesel engines and have been quite satisfied, including a BMW 5-Series and a Peugeot. Their high torque is great, but low RPM engine sound is too-truck sounding for my taste for now… (maybe in the future though). Also, with the current high cost of diesel fuel in the USA and the fact that I like to lease my vehicles for an approx. 36 month period, it would be very difficult to justify the additional upfront cost of a diesel power plant in a vehicle over the gasoline version of the same vehicle. I simply would be spending more money over the lease period. Too bad that Audi does not export their V-10 diesel SUV to the US. If they did, I just might change my mind sooner….

AVB-AMG

[X5audi]

Very specific needs, and it seems like you found the perfect vehicle. I can't imagine the X5 being satisfactory after an E55 AMG.

Did you consider the Porsche Cayenne Turbo? I personally prefer the Merc, and I'm not even a Mercedes guy.

There is no news regarding the Q7 V12 TDI's availability. It is, as of now, only a concept. However, there is a big possibility of production, and if that happened it could very well come to our side of the pond. Contact your Audi dealership if/when the news is confirmed to see if you can place your order

[StanF18]

Yeah, the Cayenne Turbo is pretty sick if you're looking for a true Racer-SUV. Assuming you have the $$$. I believe it's still the fastest production SUV?? I don't think the ML-63 AMG will outgun it.

[AVB-AMG]

X5audi & StanF18:

Yes I did consider the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, since its performance is the same as the ML63 AMG, whereas the Turbo or base model are not as fast as the ML63. The reasons I did not consider it further include:

• I don't really like the way they look. The front end is not very elegant with the huge air intake grilles that give it a sort of vacume cleaner appearance in my opinion. The body tweaks that Porsche did for the '08 model year are an improvement, but obviously were not available at the time I was in the market.
• It does not have a built-in satellite-based on-board communication system like the BMW ASSIST or M-B Tele Aid systems.
• The repuation of the few Porsche Dealers in the Northeast US are not great. They charge an arm and a leg for any type of service on all of their vehicles and are rude in the process. They don't even provide loaner vehicles!
• The Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, fully loaded costs about $25K more than a similarily equiped ML63.

If any of you are interested, here is a link to a YouTube video of a comparison between the two vehicles. It is in German (but then don't most BMW drivers speak German.....?). I though it was rather silly in the beginning since it has both vehicles being driven off-road, thru streams, up gravel embankments, all things that probably 98% of all owner's of either vehicles would never dream of intentionally doing. Who is crazy enought to risk damaging a $95,000 vehicle by doing this.....? For those who are, the Porsche has better mechanics to get through the rough than the ML does.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X_w6a5O1d...related&search=

If I wanted a true racer SUV I would have bought a Jeep SRT 8. It is a true hot-rod that is faster 0-60 mph than either the ML63 or the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, but as you reach 90-100 mph the greater torque of the M-B and Porsche will allow them to pass the Jeep. The Jeep is a lighter vehicle but with an interior filled with very low-quality materials (plastic everywhere). But to be fair, it was designed to not exceed a certain price point and it has not....

[cue03]

With the X6 available soon, the Porsche GTS, Porsche Turbo, and the facelifted ML63.... which would you choose and why if you were buying today (assuming the X6 was available fully)?

[AVB-AMG]

Originally Posted by cue03

With the X6 available soon, the Porsche GTS, Porsche Turbo, and the facelifted ML63.... which would you choose and why if you were buying today (assuming the X6 was available fully)?

Thats a good question cue03....

I will not seriously consider any Porsche or Range Rover models for the foreseeable future for all of the reasons mentioned in my earlier posts.

I think the 2007 M-B ML63 was, and after seeing the minor face-lift changtes to the '09 model at this years NY Auto Show several weeks ago, is still is the best looking performance SUV, compared to the BMW, Porsche, Range Rover and Jeep.

Several weeks ago at the New York Inter'l. Auto Show, I was most disappointed with the new exterior front and rear bright chrome underpanels on the face-lifted 2009 ML63 AMG. IMO, they create a most unfortunate "bling" or factor that the vehicle does not need and detracts from the cleaner lines and monochromatic appearance of the previous body-colored front and rear underpanels.
Also, in the front they made the previously body-colored "belt" bar where the license plate would be located, a matte black color that begins to give the front end a very "Audi style/appearance" that I personally do not care for.

The minor modifications that I do like and are a real improvement include:
- LED tail lights (much better design and brings the ML up to current industry standards in tail lamp lighting)
- Red Reflectors in rear bumper (a practical safety feature that looks good as well. Similar to what the BMW X5 has)
- Larger exterior rear view mirrors (an improvement for rear visability with larger turn signal lights embedded in the casing)

The other minor modifications that don't really impact the vehicle's appearance, practicality, function and therefore seem to deserve the "why bother...." question, include:
- Minor wheel style changes (I prefer the original design better)
- Headlights silhouette (no big deal)
- Steering wheel (spokes changed; I wonder if the wood wheel is still available as an option?)
- Rear seat entertainment option (no longer integrated into the back of the headrests, but separate LED screens that are attached to the back of the headrests and IMO look very much like an after-market addition, most unfortunate...).

I strongly suggest people see the vehicles themselves, if possible, and not just rely on the posted photographs, before making your final judgement. For example, the chrome front and rear underpanels on the face-lifted ML63 are much more pronounced and "louder" in reality than any of the photos I have seen since the show.

I still think the ML63 AMG is an excellent vehicle and a hard one to beat for anyone who needs to comfortably accommodate four people and their stuff, while not wanting to sacrifice smile-inducing acceleration, performance, engine sound and fun of driving, along with all of the advantages of owning a Mercedes-Benz and can afford and don't mind spending the premium cost for one.

So what about the BMW X6.....?

I have been waiting with baited breath for the BMW X6 which as a concept I felt would appeal to a small, niche segment of the motoring population, of which I am certainly a solid member. Since my wife and I are the only ones that would use it, we can justify it more so than families with children. But when I first saw the photos of the two X6 models I had very mixed feelings.

Also at the NY Auto Show I saw the X6 up close, since they had 3 of them there. On the lower level where 2 were located the public was able to sit in the V-8 version, which is the one that interests me. The driver's seat position, comfort level and instrumentation is excellent, very similar to that of the X5. The view out the front is great but really poor and limited to the rear via the rear view mirror. As a 200 lb / 6ft male, I was curious just how much room I would have in the rear seat. The legroom was not too bad, but I could barly fit one finger's thickness between the top of my head and the roof headliner, making me realize that the back seat is no place for average height adults. The cargo space was the most disappointing to me. It is very small with a hard "tri-fold" cover over the space that can limit actual storage space even more. It would not be very accommodating for our carrying needs for any extended vaction trip with our luggage requirements, (see my earlier post....).

Like many of the posts on the X6 forum in xoutpost.com I share some basic first impressions:

• I basically like the design of the front end of the vehicle, very masculine, strong, etc. with the big wheels and tires.
• The "fast back" roof line is not as successful and results in a hatchback style that really does remind me and many others of the ill-fated and ugly Pontiac Aztec, GM's first midsized, cross-over SUV produced btwn. '01 - '05.
• The rear end looks better from the exterior but the wedge shaped "belt line" makes the rear window very small limiting the rear visibilty from the driver's seat.

I will reserve my final judgement until I can finally test drive one at my local BMW Dealer sometime this summer to see how it performs and handles vs. the X5, (and obvioulsy my ML63).

I am always thinking what I may want to do for my next vehicle when the lease on my M-B ML63 ends in mid-2010. The BMW X6 was and may possibly still be a contender for me. But as has been speculated in this forum, if BMW finally does offer an X5 with a significanly more powerful engine and with suspension and break tweaks to match, then that would be far more appealing to me and would meet our practical needs and my lust for fast acceleration, better than the X6. So to finally answer your question, I hope that I can say that a 2010 BMW X5 will meet all of my requirements. But of course we will just have to wait and see and until then enjoy driving our respective vehicles.

How about you cu03?
and for that matter, everyone who has posted comments and opinions on this thread since mid-'07, including StanF18, X5audi, deutcsh100, vinuneuro, E5M1R, X5Jay, watrob, LVR, Shumdit, RLee371.....

What do you any of you think about the X6? Is it a possibly option for you for your next vehicle to replace your current X5? Why or why not?

Anybody else have an opinon on these comparisons?

(Feel free to be brief, something that I seem not to be able to do in this forum....)

AVB-AMB

[chilliwilli]

Welcome aboard AVB-AMG...interesting comments, quite in-depth. The performance bug has been biting me once again and I doubt it's boredom with a well-tuned 4.6is. I've tested the ML63; Cayenne w/turbo; Jeep SRT8...loved the performance of them all but preference is definitely in order as mentioned.

Making a long story long...I've resulted to patiently awaiting the arrival of an X6 ///M and the next-generation X5 performance SAV (whilst crossing my fingers and toes for a V10 TT for X5)...again welcome and great feedback.

[cue03]

I went and looked at the X6. Didn't care for the back of the SAV at all. I have a '04 4.8is with 22000 miles on it now. I think the new X5 4.8i needs some more power. I think they need to get the performance up on the X5 for me to consider it for the next purchase. Otherwise it would be the Ml63 or the Cayanne GTS.

Who knows. The gas prices are killing me at almost $85 so for a complete fill up.

Oh well, you wanna play you gotta pay.

Curtis

[X5audi]

Originally Posted by AVB-AMG

X5audi & StanF18:

Yes I did consider the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, since its performance is the same as the ML63 AMG, whereas the Turbo or base model are not as fast as the ML63. The reasons I did not consider it further include:

• I don't really like the way they look. The front end is not very elegant with the huge air intake grilles that give it a sort of vacume cleaner appearance in my opinion. The body tweaks that Porsche did for the '08 model year are an improvement, but obviously were not available at the time I was in the market.
• It does not have a built-in satellite-based on-board communication system like the BMW ASSIST or M-B Tele Aid systems.
• The repuation of the few Porsche Dealers in the Northeast US are not great. They charge an arm and a leg for any type of service on all of their vehicles and are rude in the process. They don't even provide loaner vehicles!
• The Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, fully loaded costs about $25K more than a similarily equiped ML63.

If any of you are interested, here is a link to a YouTube video of a comparison between the two vehicles. It is in German (but then don't most BMW drivers speak German.....?). I though it was rather silly in the beginning since it has both vehicles being driven off-road, thru streams, up gravel embankments, all things that probably 98% of all owner's of either vehicles would never dream of intentionally doing. Who is crazy enought to risk damaging a $95,000 vehicle by doing this.....? For those who are, the Porsche has better mechanics to get through the rough than the ML does.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X_w6a5O1d...related&search=

If I wanted a true racer SUV I would have bought a Jeep SRT 8. It is a true hot-rod that is faster 0-60 mph than either the ML63 or the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S, but as you reach 90-100 mph the greater torque of the M-B and Porsche will allow them to pass the Jeep. The Jeep is a lighter vehicle but with an interior filled with very low-quality materials (plastic everywhere). But to be fair, it was designed to not exceed a certain price point and it has not....

-I completely agree with you about the style. I've never been a big fan of the Cayenne in any respect, but the looks are the worst aspect, especially when compared to the X5, RR Sport or ML.

-I don't care very much about the roadside assistance features; we do have cell phones and I always carry mine.

-Porsche dealers aren't known for excellence.

-Yes, it is ridiculously expensive, I agree.

I tested both the '06 Cayenne S (before refresh) and '08 Cayenne S (after refresh with 380hp) before going with the X5. The X5 feels like a tank, but it also feels connected, while the Cayenne just felt big. A lack of road feel, a subdued exhaust note and a cheap, cave-like interior were turnoffs. To top that all off it would've costed $15K more than our X5.

Edit: Interesting notes on the X6.

The one thing I have ton wonder is why you said the rear looks better "from the exterior..." As opposed to the back of the car looking good from the inside?