In-depth analysis of 2005 X5 "DSP" Nav audio system

[el_duderino]

Originally Posted by silkster

I have an 01 X5 with DSP and Nav. I am plannning within the next month to do an upgrade similar to what janix did with the exception of a few things.
like going with the audio control LC6 which is a six channel LOC and plan on using Diamond S600s Hex as my components front and rear. in addition an Audio Control EQS six channel equalizer. For the subs I plan on Porting a single Jl audio 12w6v2 in the sub location and powering the system with the Phoenix Gold TI 500.4 and 800.1

I just wanna know if you have any recommendations or suggestions that i may wanna take into consideration.

Thanks

Well, here's a couple of observations.

1) I don't think the LC6 gives you enough channels. Also, I tried an LC6 in this car just for test purposes, and it was very, very noisy. I probably could have gotten a lot of it out, but it's no magic bullet, that's for sure.

2) I hope you don't get any engine noise with the EQS... I used to get a lot of noise with the Audio Control EQs (but not with the crossovers). The current series should be better, but I don't have direct experience with them.

3) I personally don't like the sound of most ported boxes and I would use a sealed box in that application. Ported boxes are bigger and for a long-travel woofer like the W6v2 you get a lot of port noise you don't need to hear (in a trunk you wouldn't hear it, but in an SUV it's pretty easy to hear).

4) Since they are discontinued, where did you get the amps?

5) Hear the Diamonds in a car before buying them, and listen for like 10 minutes straight. I find their tweeters to be impressive-sounding at first, but fatiguing to listen to over time. Also, their xover frequency doesn't allow them to play as low as I would want a dash-mounted tweeter to play to pull vocals up into the center... I would suggest in that price range you consider the DLS UP6 set. I have these in my Acura and they are our most popular component set.

Other than that, I have no opinions... : )

[Acezoned]

Aren't these cars just Ipod accessories? One shop quoted 3k for stereo upgrade. I laughed. In the end a little echo, the premium stock system, quasi-dsp, nav, suggested DSP settings from here (http://www.xoutpost.com/articles.php?...ticle&artid=74) and Ice-link plus did me straight. So much that the quote of the year was echoed from a couple studio rats on the way to the big Judas Priest show last week..."dude this stereo sounds great back here..if you could hear this detail in the lyrics from way back you'd a known Rob Halford was tricking us all this time."

p.s. Priest was epic !!!

[ncx]

Originally Posted by el_duderino

Well, here's a couple of observations.

1) I don't think the LC6 gives you enough channels. Also, I tried an LC6 in this car just for test purposes, and it was very, very noisy. I probably could have gotten a lot of it out, but it's no magic bullet, that's for sure.

2) I hope you don't get any engine noise with the EQS... I used to get a lot of noise with the Audio Control EQs (but not with the crossovers). The current series should be better, but I don't have direct experience with them.

3) I personally don't like the sound of most ported boxes and I would use a sealed box in that application. Ported boxes are bigger and for a long-travel woofer like the W6v2 you get a lot of port noise you don't need to hear (in a trunk you wouldn't hear it, but in an SUV it's pretty easy to hear).

4) Since they are discontinued, where did you get the amps?

5) Hear the Diamonds in a car before buying them, and listen for like 10 minutes straight. I find their tweeters to be impressive-sounding at first, but fatiguing to listen to over time. Also, their xover frequency doesn't allow them to play as low as I would want a dash-mounted tweeter to play to pull vocals up into the center... I would suggest in that price range you consider the DLS UP6 set. I have these in my Acura and they are our most popular component set.

Other than that, I have no opinions... : )

What about noise in the JL CleanSweep product? That was supposed to be the end to all OEM integration issues. That is the product my local shop is pushing for my solution. Is it as clean as they say, and is the output really corrected to almost linear? Does it provide the clean audio at the voltage stated in the manual?

They want to run a two-way component in front with the tweets crossed around 5K, a two-way in the rear for fill (very low gain) and a custom fglass box on the right side with a 10'. Amps on a special rack under the false floor. (4x125 and 1x400)

[JV]

Originally Posted by Acezoned

dude this stereo sounds great back here..if you could hear this detail in the lyrics from way back you'd a known Rob Halford was tricking us all this time."

p.s. Priest was epic !!!

HA HA!!! NICE!!!

[el_duderino]

Originally Posted by Acezoned

Aren't these cars just Ipod accessories? One shop quoted 3k for stereo upgrade. I laughed. In the end a little echo, the premium stock system, quasi-dsp, nav, suggested DSP settings from here (http://www.xoutpost.com/articles.php?...ticle&artid=74) and Ice-link plus did me straight. So much that the quote of the year was echoed from a couple studio rats on the way to the big Judas Priest show last week..."dude this stereo sounds great back here..if you could hear this detail in the lyrics from way back you'd a known Rob Halford was tricking us all this time."

!!!

Some people have $3K just in their wine collection. If somebody wants to have a great-sounding music system, nothing laughable about that. Cool that you don't want one, I guess.

It's not like you bought this car because it was low-cost. Hell of a time to start economizing now. Look, science has proven that stress ages us, and that music relaxes us. Why not maximize the effect?

[el_duderino]

Originally Posted by ncx

What about noise in the JL CleanSweep product? That was supposed to be the end to all OEM integration issues. That is the product my local shop is pushing for my solution. Is it as clean as they say, and is the output really corrected to almost linear? Does it provide the clean audio at the voltage stated in the manual?

They want to run a two-way component in front with the tweets crossed around 5K, a two-way in the rear for fill (very low gain) and a custom fglass box on the right side with a 10'. Amps on a special rack under the false floor. (4x125 and 1x400)

I have not used the Clean Sweep. I personally believe its greatest effect is convincing installers who don't know how to do this, that they can do this (it ha an auto-adjust feature to reverse the EQ). Personally, I beleive that it's preferable to NOT lose the steering wheel volume controls or the EQ. Have they specifically explained the effects of installing the CS on how the system works now? BTW, who are you talking to?

However, I'm not going to say it has noise. Like many products, I bet that in some cars it works great and in a few cars it has noise. The X5 has a rep with many manufacturer companies of being an electrically noisy car - and I know that the LC6 can sound clean in other cars, but it sure had noise in the X5.

I have seen before-and-after RTA curves, published by JL, and while the response is definitely better, it's not as if it's magically flat as a pancake. The curves aren't easy to tell the vertical dB scale on, either. I'm not certain that the HU output needs equalization - I think that's all in the OEM amp, and if you are adding a volume control, you don't need the OEM amp.

As far as the dash tweeters go, there are basically two schools of tweeter thought. One is silk-dome, low resonant frequency, low crossover point.

The other is harder materials, higher resonant frequency, higher crossover point.

The latter tend to have a peak around 10K, sound "detailed" in the board, but bouncing off of glass, they can easily be found bright and forward and after some time are fatiguing to listen to for may people.

The latter are in my experience based on great-sounding home speaker drivers, where the tweeter and woofer are very close together and you don't have glass surfaces to worry about.

Companies using the first approach include Dynaudio, Morel, DLS, a/d/s/, and to a little lesser degree at times Boston, Alpine X-type, etc.

Companies using the second type include Focal, Diamond, MB Quart, JBL, and Infinity.

Even if you decide that sonically all these sound great in a demo board (something that is a matter of personal opinion), in the X5 door/dash locations, you will have a LOT more musical information up in the windshield if your tweeter plays an octave lower into the upper midrange.

I've been doing this for 18 years. I tried the hard tweeters for a while in my own car a few years back. I found that after a couple years, I was listening to ESPN Radio more than music. I changed my speakers and noticed that I started getting CDs again and started taking them in the car again.

It would have been preferable to spend time sitting in front of my Thiels and my Audio Research and doing nothing but having a drink and listening to a good home music system - but I don't seem to have as much time to do that as I used to. The average American spends 9 hours a week in their car.
As I said above, science has proven that stress ages us, and that music relaxes us. Why miss such an opportunity to improve your surroundings for 9 hours a week?

[silkster]

Can you tell me more about the ULS up6 line of speakers to be honest I have never heard of them..

I had Diamonds hex in my previous car which was a lexus Gs430 it sounded pretty good, but you are right about the low end and the loudness not enough mid bass also, but otherwise a great sounding speaker
.
my other option for staging were cdt -audio cl-62-560 or cl-61-560 or Focal 165 k2, mb quart q series

As for the phoenix gold Amps i knew these were the amps that i wanted to use so i purchased the 800.1 4 months ago from a local shop that was clearing them out and the 500.4 last week from ebay.

As for the reason I waw going with the LC6 I am not trying to reproduce 14 channels like the OEM amp. I just wanted front rear and sub, and i figure instead of doing what Janix did i trying to reproduce all these channels and you cant control them from the head unit which only allows you front and rear so i just decided to go front/ rear/ sub.

I used the EQS as an option for further equalization from the lc6 but I guess i can always just use the cross overs from the components or go with an EQX.
either way I think that its an upgrade from the factory system. but I totally wanna be in control of designing this system. because while you have a lot of installers that make your trunk look pretty, they are often clueless when it comes to the dealing with wiring a bmw and their dsp system.

[Chris F.]

Originally Posted by el_duderino

It would have been preferable to spend time sitting in front of my Thiels and my Audio Research and doing nothing but having a drink and listening to a good home music system - but I don't seem to have as much time to do that as I used to. The average American spends 9 hours a week in their car.
As I said above, science has proven that stress ages us, and that music relaxes us. Why miss such an opportunity to improve your surroundings for 9 hours a week?

Glad to hear you are a home audio nut as well Ken. I have Krell and B&W at home. I haven't had the guts to redo the stereo in the X5 (just the sub right now), but maybe I will someday. BTW, where are you located? Are you in New England?

[el_duderino]

Originally Posted by Chris F.

Glad to hear you are a home audio nut as well Ken. I have Krell and B&W at home. I haven't had the guts to redo the stereo in the X5 (just the sub right now), but maybe I will someday. BTW, where are you located? Are you in New England?

Portland, Oregon - the New England of the West : )

[el_duderino]

Originally Posted by silkster

Can you tell me more about the ULS up6 line of speakers to be honest I have never heard of them..

I had Diamonds hex in my previous car which was a lexus Gs430 it sounded pretty good, but you are right about the low end and the loudness not enough mid bass also, but otherwise a great sounding speaker
.
my other option for staging were cdt -audio cl-62-560 or cl-61-560 or Focal 165 k2, mb quart q series

As for the phoenix gold Amps i knew these were the amps that i wanted to use so i purchased the 800.1 4 months ago from a local shop that was clearing them out and the 500.4 last week from ebay.

As for the reason I waw going with the LC6 I am not trying to reproduce 14 channels like the OEM amp. I just wanted front rear and sub, and i figure instead of doing what Janix did i trying to reproduce all these channels and you cant control them from the head unit which only allows you front and rear so i just decided to go front/ rear/ sub.

I used the EQS as an option for further equalization from the lc6 but I guess i can always just use the cross overs from the components or go with an EQX.
either way I think that its an upgrade from the factory system. but I totally wanna be in control of designing this system. because while you have a lot of installers that make your trunk look pretty, they are often clueless when it comes to the dealing with wiring a bmw and their dsp system.

Oh, thos eare very nice amps, I was just wondering where you scared them up. They were made here in Portland and I wish they were still around...

I understand what you're saying about installers. I tend to characterize installers into two types: Engine Builders and Mechanics. The Engine Builders can make your stereo look sweet - but they can't troubleshoot, diagnose, or analyze very well, because theory ain't their thang. Mechanics can figure anything out, but aren't neccesarily the ones that can make everything look like it just won a trophy at a car show.

Ideally a shop has at least one of each. For instance, my install manager is more of an engine builder - he knows theory fairly well, but that's really my bag - but he can make things look and work from a mechanical POV much better than I do. But I can troubleshoot or analyze very well. So I make the plan, he executes the plan, and then we tune and tweak together.

I hadn't heard of DLS until about 6 months ago, and I've been in this industry for 19 years. Turns out they win IASCA and EMMA trophies left and right - they make VERY good sounding gear. You can see their web site at www.dls.se . Click on the British flag unless you can read Swedish.

They make amps and speakers - an amazing number of amps and speakers. It's apparent to me that they have a wider range than JL Audio or Rockford. What's surprising to me is that I've really liked every item we've tried of theirs. $150 a pair 6" coaxes - loved them. $350 50-watt times 4 amp - loved it. $159 magnesium-cone subwoofer - loved it. $450 30w x 2 high-end amp - loved it (it's on the board powering a Dynaudio System 240GT component set, with no sub, and sounding great: )

The UP6 are interesting, in that I like their sound more than I like the sound of the speakers above them in the DLS line (there are only 2 series above them) when mounted in a door. (The more expensive speaks seem more optimized for kick panel enclosures - but their tweeter actually has a tuned chamber in it and would sound very good in the X5 dash...)

Their tweeter has a resonant frequency of like 900 Hz. That means it can have meaningful output down to 1800 Hz with no danger of mechanical failure. a/d/s/, Dynaudio, Scan-Speak (the OEMs for the Alpine F#1 Status speakers) and Morel are companies that pioneered low-resonance tweeters.

The mid has a two-inch voice coil - means it can be more accurate when it has enough power to control it precisely - and the magnet is a neodymium hybrid (rare for a midrange, more common in tweeters) that exists mostly inside the 2" voice coil, so it is very accurate but isn't very large and so is easy to fit into various cars. Two-inch voice coils are found more in 10" woofers than in 6" mids. (Morel and Dynaudio are two companies who pioneered large-voice-coil mids back 15-20 years ago.)

So DLS is using these same techniques, but at a sharper price point.

I understand that you aren't trying to do 14 channels... but you need at least 7. There isn't any "front" channel - there's front tweeters, front mids, and front mid-bass. You could sum those three together with the LC6 (and three "Y" adapters) and still not have anything left to address the rear midbass, rear midrange, and the subs. That's my concern.

Be very careful with component location if you are doing this yourself. There are ECUs and grounding brackets in this car that emit EMI radiation like nobody's business - which can be heard when picked up by the interior of a component. Experimentation is crucial.