[quote=inlacal]Fnelson: What are you talking about?

Seems to me you might want to know what those existing law are before you conclude they don't need to be changed. The basic argument in favor of immigration reform is that the current laws are screwed up. Why do you think that argument is wrong?

I repeat: why do you disagree with proponents of immigration reform who believe our current immigration laws are broken?

If there's more to it than "they're bad because they're illegal", please tell me what it is. That is the only argument I can see in your post. Illegal aliens are ILLEGAL, they are not "law-abiding" they are equivalent to felons, they didn't come here legally, etc. If there's another argument in there somewhere, I missed it - honestly.

The U.S. didn't even have any immigration laws to speak of until 1917 and our current system of regulating immigration didn't exist until 1952. For nearly two hundred years, our immigration policy was "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free... " and all it did was make the United States an economic and political superpower. Perhaps you can explain to me why those laws were so horrible and why the laws now are so wonderful that there is no reason to even talk about changing them.

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Right on, cuz

I've said it before: this AIN'T 1917, and millions of Europeans, Asians and Africans wish they were so lucky as to be able to walk across the border into the US!

Do we grant access due to geography? I say hell no. But there's bad apples who walked or rode here as well as criminals who flew or sailed here.

For every bunch of illegal immigrants here to do crime and suck the gubment titty, there's a PhD. from India who can't bring his wife and kids over or a rare disease specialist from Sierra Leone who can't bring his parents here to flee the looting and violence that plagues that country. It's friggin' unfair.

JV

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JV

What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know...it's what we know for sure that just ain't so

We didn't have the wonderful "social" programs prior to 1952 either. The promise of the United States was OPPORTUNITY, not a FREE HANDOUT like it is today.

So if you came into the U.S. in 1875 you had to work to survive. Today you just get a fake drivers license and social security card, and you get all the public assistance you need.

My wife sees it every day in the medical field. They all have Medicaid, they don't speak English (many different nationalities, many different languages), and it continues to get worse every year.

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I'm actually denying it since the only impact I'm feeling is positive - but that's not really the point of my post

More effective border enforcement certainly needs to be part of any comprehensive immigration reform package, but sealing the border is not possible unless/until both the demand for and the supply of illegal immigrants is brought under control. If we don't do that, the only thing increased border security will do is make smugglers rich(er).

That's the supply problem we need to address. There are things we can do to reduce the demand for illegal immigrants here in the U.S. However, that's not going to do much good if their own government is actively trying to kick them out.

A bit over the top, IMO. I don't think they're exactly asking for us to "roll out the red carpet" a path to legitimacy would be enough. Plus, I just don't get why everyone is SOOO offended by the Mexican flags. People can love the U.S. and still be proud of their heritage. I just don't gety why waving a foreign flag is like preaching sedition to some people.

Does that include shoplifting? DUI? What about youthful offenders? What about a 22 year old with a gun charge (simple possession - not a violent crime) who came here when he was 2 and doesn't have any other arrests or convictions?

The whole issue of criminal aliens and deciding who stays and who goes is a lot murkier than you might think.

It already is

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[quote=dkosters]We didn't have the wonderful "social" programs prior to 1952 either. The promise of the United States was OPPORTUNITY, not a FREE HANDOUT like it is today.[;quote]

So if you came into the U.S. in 1875 you had to work to survive. Today you just get a fake drivers license and social security card, and you get all the public assistance you need.

This isn't an immigration issue. U.S. citizens take advantage of public assistance in exactly the same way. This is an argument in favor of revamping our public assistance programs - and I wholeheartedly agree. FWIW I don't think a U.S. citizen that abuses the system is somehow "more entitled" to do that just because s/he is a U.S. citizen.

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Frank

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I'll go with you , US Medicare and Social Security will be bankrupt by then

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...
thank you X5world!

[quote=fnelson9]Fnelson: You make this whole crisis sound idealistic, in nature, from a solution standpoint.

The one thing we can agree on is that all illegals meet the criminal definition of 'criminal' and 'felon'. However, the overall problem doesn't begin or end here.

You bring up 1917 and 1952 when these era's and ages didn't showcase fundamental Muslim's capable of slipping into our country and flying planes into buildings; had they had access to nuclear weapons and chemical/radiological/biological weapons, they would have used them. We have laws whether you agree with them or not.

"Immigration reform" isn't the problem. Don't let the Clinton News Network (CNN) try to convince you otherwise. It's ILLEGAL alien entry into our country that is the problem. This has nothing to do with laws in place (as they have been ruefully ignored/abused by would-be entrants into the country) but our ability/charter to enforce the existing laws.

Any attempt to re-tool, reform, change, augment or create new laws is simply political spin-doctoring. We need to shut down the border yesterday. As for those who have shown up in mass and attempt to decree rights they aren't entitled to or haven't earned is also the issue. I'm not sure we can go Berlin-wall on our southern border. If we can, we must. As far as those who are here, I'm absolutely 100% in favor of exporting them back to where they came from. This could take a decade but it is necessary and it should happen. Will it? Probably not. Reason being: My earlier argument about census controlling the power of the politician. Couple that power with the presence of political action committee's and businesses with a vested interest in cheap labor and this entire exercise could be academic. Census, PAC money and business money will truly decide this argument I'm afraid.

I long for the innocence of the 50's that you speak of, we also let the worst of the German and Japanese into this country without any red-tape at all; this after they butchered and experimented on millions in prison camps around the world. We took them. We also took the most brilliant scientists from around the world who made significant contributions to our society...I could go on and on about the exceptions to immigration policy we've made, but these are the exceptions to the rule.

Nobody free-loading on our schools, social & welfare programs and our hospitals should be entitled to any kind of amnesty exceptions or exemptions simply because 'they are here'. I'm back to colorful explicatives: Fu*k them. Get the fu*k out. Go home. Stop leeching.

I'm especially bitter on these points because the Democratic left in this country is doing everything they can to re-distribute wealth amongst the poor and un-deserving; and they go to great lengths to let it be known that that is their intent; that they are on a crusade to help the 'working class' by taxing the rich and giving to the poor...Prostituting the Robin Hood myth for every ounce of political mindshare it will earn them in the media. I fear it could only be a matter of time before we have a group of Democrats who will succeed in their attepts to make us the Union of American Socialist Republics (UASR) not to be confused with the great experiment along these lines that ultimately failed (USSR). However, the ultimate end-game will be the same. And our acceptance of mass groups (millions) of illegal immigrants will only give the left strength in their quest to help these 'poor illegal aliens' by creating more social programs/incentives to support them because, after-all, the census = power when it comes to holding office...Not your legality and voting status. Who votes for you is the causal effect of you having your position in the first place.

Since I'm charged today, I'd also like to stipulate for the record that there shouldn't be a Mexican flag flown anywhere in this country. If you have any love/desire/respect/faith/allegiance to a foreign country then you do not belong here...Especially if you are illegal. Go the fu*k back. Get the fu*k out. You'd think that, after March, Mexican's would have learned that if they were trying to gain sympathy, they would have shelved the Mexican flag if there was a camera nearby. After all, why the fu*k are you protesting anyway? Do you want to be here or there? But no, these yahoo's felt that 'coming out' and showing their 'people-power' through a display of the Mexican AND the American flag was somehow a good idea.

It wasn't.

All it did was piss-off anyone watching whose sympathy they were trying to gain...Or was it beg-for? Because, after all, what the hell are they asking for and why? Amnesty and citizenship because they broke our laws to get here?

I'm not against them because they are illegally here. At the core of my anger is they publicly proclaiming their status as felon's, come out en-masse to celebrate it; try to appeal to our sympathy for their law-breaking habits and expect citizenship at the end of the day, all the while sucking our existing social programs dry and weakening our infrastructure in totality; driving down property values and I could go on and on.

My wife is in the hospital for two days, the bill is $12,000. Our health insurance covers it. If any of them go into the hospital for two days, we foot the bill as taxpayers because they can't afford it/aren't paying tax/aren't contributing to social programs. When one of them t-bone's our cars we are covered...Why? Because we had to pay for 'uninsured motorist coverage' to guard against this eventuality. Why? Because it happens every single day to the tune of hundreds of thousands locally and millions nationally.

I keep coming back to the same solution: Lock down the damned border and deport everyone over a decade or so.

Chris

And I thought I was pissed off.

Look what happened in Herndon, VA http://www.michellemalkin.com/.

Bottom line: America needs labor, but things are out of control. Write your Senators, folks: http://www.senate.gov/general/contac...nators_cfm.cfm

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Chris,

You keep saying "I'm not against them because they are illegally here" yet 90% of your discussion is all about how they are illegally here. I'm still trying to figure out exactly why you want to kick these people out so badly.

Also, I think you might have misunderstood my post. "Illegal aliens are ILLEGAL, they are not "law-abiding" they are equivalent to felons, they didn't come here legally, etc." are your arguments, not mine. I was just re-stating what I took from your previous post.

When anyone comes to the U.S., they are moving from A to B. Whether they enter legally or illegally, that is what they are doing. Whether they enter legally or illegally, they are coming here because they believe life will be better here. I'm having a real hard time viewing that as criminal conduct.

So, what is the "real" difference between a legal entrant and an illegal entrant - not very much. One "followed the rules" and one didn't. You think that's incredibly significant for some reason - significant enough to call the person a "felon" and/or a "criminal" and use that label to justify forcibly removing them from the U.S. I, on the other hand, am not all that impressed with "the rules" so I'm not so morally outraged when someone breaks them. You complain about political pandering, yet "the rules" you hold so dear are entirely constructed of, by and through political pandering. Very, very little of what makes up our current immigration laws actually protects our security or ensures the "legal" immigrants will meet any particular moral, ethical or security standard - those laws exist, of course, but they are just a small fraction of the morasse of involuted statutes and regulations which comprise our immigration system.

If Congress had passed a law this morning making it a felony to exceed the speed limit, I would have been guilty of a couple of felonies today. You would be able to argue that I am both a criminal and a felon and try to persuade the rest of the world that I shouldn't be entitled to any government benefits because I am a criminal. However, the fact remains that all I did was drive 70 in a 65mph zone.

Immigration laws aren't any different. Congress creates illegal immigrants based on criteria which change almost constantly. An "illegal immigrant" today might very well have been a "legal immigrant" a decade ago and visa versa. In order to persuade me that illegal immigrants should be viewed and treated the same as armed robbers or child molesters (other groups of " felons"), you're going to have to convince me that what they did was "bad" - as in evil, harmful, destructive, etc. Merely telling me that it's "illegal" doesn't impress me very much.

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Frank

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