Welfare - When is it enough already? - Page 7

Eric5273 · #61 02-06-2007, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cleaner

And over 50% of the budget in my district… making it more of my tax dollars than the military by a factor of 2. Add in the 2.02 in federal money as well any you have increased my dollars paid for education even more.

Tax is Tax my friend, adding smiles and quoting Federal budget contributions does not change the fact that it's a bigger budget than the military. The only problem is it does not fit into the tree huggers position so it's ignored. Open up those eyes and spend all budgets wiser, don’t use the military budget as a whipping boy for poor spending, there is plenty of that to go around

Well, that is an issue to take up with your local government, not Washington. I was debating the Federal Budget here. And whether or not your local school district is crap.....that is also an issue to take up with your local school board. There are plenty of school districts in this country that are top rate.

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Eric5273 · #62 02-06-2007, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WagnerX5

Well that is nice in theory, if there was no profit to be made...well you would have to stop the entire idea of monetary value.

Think it through, if the US (or any government) wants a fighter jet....so they call Lockheed, Lockheed has to buy the parts (off those making a profit) pay the engineers and assemblers, pay the testers, pay for all the testing.....and exactly how are they NOT suppose to make a profit???

There are plenty of things that get accomplished without someone trying to make a buck. I'll use the Fire Department as an example. FDNY is widely recognized as being the best in the country (if not in the world). I'm pretty certain that firefighters (and even their superiors all the way up to the Department Chief) do not get paid based on how many fires they put out, but instead they negotiate a contract with the city which is more based on living expenses, inflation, etc.

Currently, the goal of the Fire Department is actually to prevent fires. So they go around inspecting buildings and giving fire prevention advise and do their best to educate others on how to prevent fires.

Can you imagine if the Fire Department was privately run and earned a profit based on how many fires they put out? Do you think they would then go around trying to prevent fires? Doubtful, as it would be against their better interests. In fact, possibly you could have corruption. You may have arsonists paid under the table to start fires, so the Fire Department could come and put it out and increase their bottom line. Any attempt at fire prevention would probably be opposed and undermined by the Fire Department.

I just give this as an example of how an industry can perform well even though there is no "profit motive", and how profit motive could actually encourage corruption which can harm society.

One more (and perhaps a more relevent) example:

Soldiers in the US Armed Forces do their best to do a good job, and they have no profit motive. If they can do such a good job, then why can't those who design and make the military hardware do a good job on a fixed salary? Pay them a high salary if you must in order to get the best people for the job. But their salary should not be based on how many bombs are dropped or how many war planes or tanks are used by the military.

I have a very hard time believing that all of you think these large companies have no influence whatsoever in encouraging pro-war policies in Washington. If they did not have any influence, they would not be spending tens of millions of dollars in the form of lobbyists, campaign contributions, etc. And if you do agree that they have an influence, then what kind of influence do you think they have? There is only one kind of influence they can possibly have, and that is to encourage policies that will result in higher military spending. And what sort of policies would result in that?

Lambeau · #63 02-06-2007, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGT.Santiago

eric look your self at the mirror and slap yourself for me. Alway b-tchin about the military that sh-t is getting old man try something different.

Thanks Sgt!!!

Wagner · #64 02-06-2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

There are plenty of things that get accomplished without someone trying to make a buck. I'll use the Fire Department as an example. FDNY is widely recognized as being the best in the country (if not in the world). I'm pretty certain that firefighters (and even their superiors all the way up to the Department Chief) do not get paid based on how many fires they put out, but instead they negotiate a contract with the city which is more based on living expenses, inflation, etc.

Currently, the goal of the Fire Department is actually to prevent fires. So they go around inspecting buildings and giving fire prevention advise and do their best to educate others on how to prevent fires.

Can you imagine if the Fire Department was privately run and earned a profit based on how many fires they put out? Do you think they would then go around trying to prevent fires? Doubtful, as it would be against their better interests. In fact, possibly you could have corruption. You may have arsonists paid under the table to start fires, so the Fire Department could come and put it out and increase their bottom line. Any attempt at fire prevention would probably be opposed and undermined by the Fire Department.

I just give this as an example of how an industry can perform well even though there is no "profit motive", and how profit motive could actually encourage corruption which can harm society.

One more (and perhaps a more relevent) example:

Soldiers in the US Armed Forces do their best to do a good job, and they have no profit motive. If they can do such a good job, then why can't those who design and make the military hardware do a good job on a fixed salary? Pay them a high salary if you must in order to get the best people for the job. But their salary should not be based on how many bombs are dropped or how many war planes or tanks are used by the military.

I have a very hard time believing that all of you think these large companies have no influence whatsoever in encouraging pro-war policies in Washington. If they did not have any influence, they would not be spending tens of millions of dollars in the form of lobbyists, campaign contributions, etc. And if you do agree that they have an influence, then what kind of influence do you think they have? There is only one kind of influence they can possibly have, and that is to encourage policies that will result in higher military spending. And what sort of policies would result in that?

No one ever said that corporations had no say in military spending, you just attempt to oversimplify the issue. Of course profit is derived by how many pieces are used in battle. Take pre-Vietnam days and the military budget, then look after Vietnam, take a look at Bel Helicopter and what happened for them.

Eric5273 · #65 02-06-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WagnerX5

No one ever said that corporations had no say in military spending, you just attempt to oversimplify the issue.

I never said profit is the only driving force behind war decisions. I said it is one of them, and I think that is terrible. Don't you? Do you think decisions regarding war (i.e. people's lives) should even have any influence at all from those who profit from war?

And what does it say when more than half of those on the Defense Policy Board (the group that advises the President on Defense Policy) are current or former board members of at least one of the top 10 Defense contractors? Do you not agree that this is a terrible thing?

I'm just pointing out that I think these increases in Defense spending are purely BS. Our military was plenty powerful last year and the year before that. Yet somehow spending goes up 10-20% per year and the military budget has managed to double itself in the last 5 years.

Wagner · #66 02-06-2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

I never said profit is the only driving force behind war decisions. I said it is one of them, and I think that is terrible. Don't you? Do you think decisions regarding war (i.e. people's lives) should even have any influence at all from those who profit from war?

And what does it say when more than half of those on the Defense Policy Board (the group that advises the President on Defense Policy) are current or former board members of at least one of the top 10 Defense contractors? Do you not agree that this is a terrible thing?

I'm just pointing out that I think these increases in Defense spending are purely BS. Our military was plenty powerful last year and the year before that. Yet somehow spending goes up 10-20% per year and the military budget has managed to double itself in the last 5 years.

Again, oversimplification of the issue...what are people not suppose to have jobs before politics? Where do you think they get managerial experience at the level expected to run a country? They don't get that working at Wawa.

As for military spending increasing every year, it is either go up or get cut, that is the option. You may not like it, but that is the fact. Anyone working in government tells you your biggest concern is having accountants come in and tell you they are pulling portions of your budget.

I'm sure soldiers would like as much money dumped on defense as possible....

Some money being well spent: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4a015fdb96&p=1

rebound · #67 02-06-2007, 10:28 PM

The bottom line is that Eric is upset that more money isn't coming his way from the budget.

That, and his socialist desires to have all profit derived from the work of others divided up among all. Atlas Shrugged, anyone?

BTW Eric - you should read that sometime. Don't wait for the movie, I gaurantee they won't do the book justice.

Wagner · #68 02-06-2007, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebound

The bottom line is that Eric is upset that more money isn't coming his way from the budget.

That, and his socialist desires to have all profit derived from the work of others divided up among all. Atlas Shrugged, anyone?

BTW Eric - you should read that sometime. Don't wait for the movie, I gaurantee they won't do the book justice.

Side Note/OT: Can't wait for the movie 300 to come out!!!

OK, back on topic.

rebound · #69 02-06-2007, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

There was no fraud, just some laziness which lead to a bunch of waste. If I had given gifts or contributions to those making the decisions, or those in charge of the bidding process, then yes that would have been fraud.

Actually, that is fraud. Not necessarily on your part, but fraud none the less. Your "buddies" are lucky I don't know who they are. I'd report them to their Inspector General in a heartbeat. It's assclowns like them that make the honest peoples' lives harder.

Wagner · #70 02-06-2007, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebound

Actually, that is fraud. Not necessarily on your part, but fraud none the less. Your "buddies" are lucky I don't know who they are. I'd report them to their Inspector General in a heartbeat. It's assclowns like them that make the honest peoples' lives harder.

Shoot, I can't give a client anything over $10.00

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