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  #11  
Old 09-18-2008, 04:30 PM
JGQ JGQ is offline
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I too lived in many states (KY, AZ, MI, CA, and now OH)

One common theme I noticed is that local governments take care of the locals and they stack the deck against new comers to some extent. Prop 13 is another way of doing just that. Locals and old timers get the low taxes while new comers and professionals who relocated for a job get to pay the new taxes. Though I have to say in defense of the system, it is very good for those of us who like to budget ahead of time their liabilities. It is great knowing exactly what you need to pay in taxes.
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  #12  
Old 09-19-2008, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Line
Barry,

Remember, I am a homeowner also. I'm not taking a stab at a benefit that does not effect me.
If Prop 13 were to be recalled, I would suffer having to pay an increase in taxes as well.
So while I am the type of person that likes to vote with my wallet, on the issue of Prop 13, compared to the other states I have lived in, it's bringing this state down, not propping it up.

The roads by my house are as bad as bad can be. The public school systems are horrible. The police force is overworked, understaffed and we have fire departements that don't have enough money to put out out these ginormous blazes that are popping up everywhere.

As a tax payer, I would love for the state gov't to put a ceiling on INCOME TAX as well. What I'm paying today in income will be the same thing I'm paying in 30 years regardless of earnings, etc. But the loss of that revenue is not going to help city groups to budget better, it's only going to leave them underfunded with less adequate professionals doing the job because salaries are too low.

No one likes to pay more taxes but it's a necessary evil.

I've also never seen a toll road in California. There are certainly none in Los Angeles. You can't get out of the state of New Jersey without paying a toll for using their highways..

And it's the income that is gained from things like tolls and real estate taxes that helps pay for schools and roads.

So you have to ask yourself, what's more important. Giving people a BONUS by not having to pay adequate taxes because they have been living in a home for X amount of years or having good schools, roads, police departments, fire departments, etc.

In addition, the increase that is allowed in real estate taxes does not even come close to matching the increase in inflation. Which actually means, you are paying LESS in taxes than you were 30 years ago.

I could understand if the tax increases were keeping up with inflation or the cost of living but it doesn't. When fuel prices go up, so do the prices of running school buses and ambulances for the fire department.

Yes, there is a benefit to all homeowners, especially the homeowners who have been in there homes a long time. But just like someone in NYC who has a 4000 sqft. rent controlled apt. on Central Park South for $1000 month isn't fair, neither is a homeowner in California who is paying 1/20 in taxes for the same property as their neighbor with the exact same house.

Just my .02..
And don't think it's narrow. I understand the other points, but the means don't justify the ends.
Before all this subprime mess, people took more consideration when it comes to where to buy a home. People that bought homes 20+ years ago and have done their part in creating stable income for the state. So far Prop 13 is has been a good thing. Throwing it out the window would be a big mistake. Your line of thinking promotes instability and is just selfish hater mentality. You are very narrow minded on a lot of subjects and hardly ever try to understand both sides of situations.

So you want people who have been able to keep their homes for all these years to all of the sudden risk losing them because you as a new home buyer feel it is unfair ? Let's just kick out grandpa and grandma who have done their struggling to keep their home out on the street right? Just so it will be fair to you. The economic problems we face today is nothing that other generations haven't been through already. In fact, what is going on right now will be the second time the baby boomer generation will be in trouble. I doubt that a recall of Prop 13 would make that much more, in fact I'm betting that you would have to pay less. If roads and school systems were so important to you, maybe you should have thought about it before you decided to move there. Its no ones fault but your own to pay top dollar for a home in the ghetto.
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  #13  
Old 09-19-2008, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakai
Before all this subprime mess, people took more consideration when it comes to where to buy a home. People that bought homes 20+ years ago and have done their part in creating stable income for the state. So far Prop 13 is has been a good thing. Throwing it out the window would be a big mistake. Your line of thinking promotes instability and is just selfish hater mentality. You are very narrow minded on a lot of subjects and hardly ever try to understand both sides of situations.

So you want people who have been able to keep their homes for all these years to all of the sudden risk losing them because you as a new home buyer feel it is unfair ? Let's just kick out grandpa and grandma who have done their struggling to keep their home out on the street right? Just so it will be fair to you. The economic problems we face today is nothing that other generations haven't been through already. In fact, what is going on right now will be the second time the baby boomer generation will be in trouble. I doubt that a recall of Prop 13 would make that much more, in fact I'm betting that you would have to pay less. If roads and school systems were so important to you, maybe you should have thought about it before you decided to move there. Its no ones fault but your own to pay top dollar for a home in the ghetto.
Gee Lakai,

Seems like someone is carrying around some baggage.. Did I hurt your feelings? Maybe we can hug it out.. Come on, give us a kiss.

As far as me being narrow minded, that would insinuate that I don't explore other sides of the issue. As usual, Lakai, you are VERY wrong. I make informed decisions based on information and furthermore, am very open to changing my position if information comes along that makes me think otherwise. And there is also a big difference between understanding both sides of an argument and agreeing with both sides of an argument.
-- In almost every argument, both sides have a good reason for supporting their decision. And when deciding where to stand on an issue, I look at at both sides and make a decision on what side of the issue I think is most important. - Is it better for the individual or better for masses? Is it fair? Is it equal? Do the ends justify the means?

I use the term grandpa because it's the people who have been in their homes 30 plus years that are most benefitting from Prop 13. I'm not using it to be derogatory, I'm using to describe a demographic that has been subsidized. But you are right, re-reading my posts, it does seem as a slam even though it wasn't meant to be. Good job Lakai, you made me change a point of view from now on I will use the term Baby Boomer instead. (more politically correct, even though you have stated in many posts that you already feel I'm the PC police.)

Next issue... I'm not a new home buyer. I've been in my Hollywood Hills home for six years. It's more than doubled in value but my taxes have stayed the same. - And if you want to use the term ghetto which means pocket of ethnic area, yes, you are right, there are other Jews in the area besides me. We even have some other minorities like African Americans and lots of Asians and Hispanics.. I don't expect to see you visiting these areas much because you have made it clear how you feel about minorities... Or do I need to quote you again?

Secondly, if you bothered to read much, you would see that I suggested that at the very least, taxes should increase at a rate equal to inflation.

Prop 13 has been a plague on this state's economy and further incentives people not to move. I would be okay with a plan that helped people stay in their houses if they wanted to stay, but a plan that makes it more expensive for than to move to a more practical situation is just ANTI PROGRESSIVE. It inhibits areas of, new development and redevelopment. Old sewers, old power-lines, old homes, equal big problems down the road. It's mortgaging the future with huge interest rates.

Lastly, Prop 13 also can be handed down to family members. Effectively seizing all practical amounts of real estate taxes indefinitely.

-- So while you might think I'm narrow minded, obnoxious, etc. Maybe you should stop projecting your own inability to both extract and deliver rational thought..
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Last edited by B-Line; 09-19-2008 at 03:04 PM.
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  #14  
Old 09-19-2008, 03:20 PM
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A case in point:

California doesn't have enough money to make the budget work and that is with keeping a status quo investment on infrastructure.

Which means, RELATIVELY NO MONEY FOR IMPROVEMENTS.. We can't even keep afloat the public services that we do have.

So lets look at some pictures:
Here are some pictures I shot from my balcony less than an hour ago. You can't currently buy a house in this area, on my block, or in the zip code for less than $1 Million, ballpark.

Here are some shots of what the streets look like on a block of million dollar homes:
(facing up the street)


(facing down the street)






Why are the roads so bad? Prop 13. No money for public services to fix em because "baby boomers" aren't paying their share in taxes.

Point is, no money for repairs on Million dollar blocks of Los Angeles. What other state in the country has Million dollar homes with roads that look this bad? None that I've ever been to because they pay real estate taxes that go towards public services.. (Not even going to get into the problems of how bad the schools are.)

Second, lets talk about the future. Lets talk about modernization, lets talk about retrofitting, lets talk about keeping California in the 21st century.

This is what our power lines and phone lines and cable lines look like:


Don't you think those utility poles should be underground? Do you think in the year 2008 there should still be wires across america in people's sight lines? Everywhere else I have ever lived, they had tax money to go subgrade. They are installing Fiber Optics, they are not using some archaic and horrendous form of distribution.. Guess what? No money for upgrades cause Baby Boomer ain't paying real estate taxes.

They can't even afford to maintain what's there now. Look at the lines going through the trees. It's been like that for 5 plus years: (and that is a very famous persons house who has a late night talk show.)


So what's more important, giving tax subsidies to vested home owners so they can spend their money on plasma's and ipods. Or raising taxes to a reasonable level so the state doesn't continue to be in a fiscal mess. We can fix what we have now and start planning for the future...

Not giving the 30 year homeowner a gift of only having to pay 1% of what their home was worth in 1980.

Imagine if New York City did this.....

But thanks again Lakai for suggesting I haven't examined the issue.
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  #15  
Old 09-19-2008, 03:33 PM
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Pictures speak 1000 words.
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  #16  
Old 09-19-2008, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Line
A case in point:

California doesn't have enough money to make the budget work and that is with keeping a status quo investment on infrastructure.

Which means, RELATIVELY NO MONEY FOR IMPROVEMENTS.. We can't even keep afloat the public services that we do have.

So lets look at some pictures:
Here are some pictures I shot from my balcony less than an hour ago. You can't currently buy a house in this area, on my block, or in the zip code for less than $1 Million, ballpark.

Here are some shots of what the streets look like on a block of million dollar homes:
Pretty bad streets. Believe it or not I paid to have our street paved myself out of my own pocket the road was so bad. 10 years ago it cost $15,000 which was a deal. I could not drive my Porsche up and down the road daily so I figured it was cheaper to pave than fix the Porsche.
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  #17  
Old 09-19-2008, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagner
Pictures speak 1000 words.
The public school system is as messed up as the street pictures I'm showing you.
That's why private schools are so popular in California.

You know what it costs to send a kid to private school in Los Angeles?
Kindergarten through 5th grade..
I think the average price is about $23,000 - $25,000 a year.

Or you can send em to public schools that are as well run as the road service.

Also, Wagner, you'll appreciate this. Lets do a little math.
If you bought a house in Los Angeles in 1980 for $200,000 at 1.25% real estate tax your yearly tax bill was $2500.
Now that home (on the very, very, very low side) is worth lets say $1 Million. You know how much the homeowner is spending on real estate taxes? Today, 2008, Million dollar home bought in 1980, they are still paying approximately $2500.. Maybe tops $3000 with compounded increases.

That's right, $3000 in real estate taxes on a million dollar property.
And people wonder why the state of California is always in a fiscal crisis.

And just to give you another example. The neighbor who bought the fictitious house next door last year for a million dollars, is paying $12,500 in real estate taxes for the same home.

Did I mention that baby boomer can pass the home along to their heirs, indefinitely, and the taxes stay at the price when they bought in.
So, Baby Boomers grandson is gifted the house and he pays, $3000 in real estate taxes, while his neighbor who is struggling to afford the mortgage because of limited real estate in prime areas, is given a never ending TAX GIFT...
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  #18  
Old 09-19-2008, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLabGuy
Pretty bad streets. Believe it or not I paid to have our street paved myself out of my own pocket the road was so bad. 10 years ago it cost $15,000 which was a deal. I could not drive my Porsche up and down the road daily so I figured it was cheaper to pave than fix the Porsche.
That's just the picture of the immediate street in front of my house. The problem goes all the way down and all the way up. Miles and miles and miles of horrendous roads. Even if I wanted to pay for it, I couldn't..
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  #19  
Old 09-19-2008, 04:25 PM
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WTF dude.. how the hell did you manage to bring ethnicity in to this post. You're a fuckin racist.

You say that prop13 is a plague on our state budget, but give me your rationale on why you think that it will help the budget crisis ?? How does it prevent people from moving ?

Is the real reason because you're having a hard time trying to sell your house so that you can move ? Close to 70% of the people living in Hollywood Hills rent their homes and most of those people move out within 3-6 years for the same problems you feel. Reason you have crappy roads and aging infrastructure is because its a old neighborhood. The school system sucks because very few people living there have children. I don't blame you if want to move. Homes there are way overpriced and there is way too much traffic.

You are all about changing things at other people's expense. If you don't like prop13 , why don't you just pay the amount it would be without prop13 instead of talking about how unfair it is then. Lets see how you feel when you own a home long enough and all of the sudden get a huge increase in property tax.
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  #20  
Old 09-19-2008, 04:36 PM
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Those roads look pretty bad, even looks like they never get street swept. Are you sure its not a private road ?
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