im surprised there have not been posts about the Hamas, Israel conflict.

[pski215]

Any thoughts or opinions on this whole situation? how do you think it should be resolved?

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by pski215

Any thoughts or opinions on this whole situation? how do you think it should be resolved?

If you look back at posts from the summer of '06, we discussed this subject to the point of saturation during Israel's invasion of Lebenon. And I think the current situation is quite similar to that one.

I personally think both sides suck. I'd love to hear each side say what their actual objectives are. So far neither side seems to have a solid achievable goal in all of this, which is why this conflict has gone on for 40 years.

As for your question "how do you think it should be resolved?", I think that Israel should accept the treaty that was offered by the Arab League earlier this year. Even Hamas agreed to accept its terms. Last I checked, the only strategy that has resulted in peace for Israel has been to give back land conquered in 1967. Since giving land back to Egypt in 1978, and giving land back to Jordan in 1993, both of those countries have been at peace with Israel. I think Israel should take a lesson from those experiences and do the same with Syria and the Palestineans. Obviously there is no solution that will please everyone or stop all the violence, but that one seems to be the one that will please the most people and save the most lives.

[pski215]

israel has stated its objectives to cease the rocket attacks by Hamas into Southern Israel.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by pski215

israel has stated its objectives to cease the rocket attacks by Hamas into Southern Israel.

One has to question if that is really their objective given what their strategy has been so far. Their actions so far will result in the exact opposite of that stated goal.

BTW, I added another paragraph to my last post.

[Eric5273]

Here is the plan I was talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

[B-Line]

PSK,

You've only been here a short while and probably don't know particular points of view, but please understand that Eric, while Jewish,
A) Believes that Israel does not have the right to protect itself using retaliatory measures against aggressors.
B) Believes that Sept 11th was planned and executed by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney in an effort to protect Haliburton from a law suit.
C) Believes that we can have world peace by everyone sitting in a drum circle and singing "We shall overcome"...
D) Believes that everyone is entitled to a better tomorrow (except his own employees who he does not offer Health Insurance.)
E) Is still, after two years, 4121 posts, and a ton of pot stirring, is still not a paid member of this forum, which he frequently visits, enjoys and benefits from, but refuses to contribute to it's operating expenses.
F) Believes that Israel is the aggressor and trouble maker in the Middle East and if only they gave back land, suddenly, all of their enemies would come together, open their arms, and welcome Israel into the Middle East union and would welcome the Jews into their homes and would even push to have their Muslim daughters marry into an Israeli Jewish family...



As far as my views on the Hamas attacks and Israels response:

A) NEVER AGAIN
B) Fight the Chicago way. Put one of ours in the hospital, put two of theirs in the morgue.
C) Don't want to have innocent civilians killed, well don't put your military compounds in schools and places of prayer.
D) As far as the protests going on in Europe.. Well duh.. There all a bunch of anti-semites anyway. When is the last time Germany or France did anything to protect the Jewish people.
E) There is no amount of land, territory or space that Israel could ever give back that would end the efforts of their enemies trying to push the Jews into the Sea.. So they might as well stay in those places as they serve as important military strategic points for it's own defense. And every time they do give back land, they get attacked from it..

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by B-Line

And every time they do give back land, they get attacked from it..

They have given land back 2 times. Once in 1978 when they signed a peace treaty with Egypt. And another time in 1993 when they signed a peace treaty with Jordan. As far as I know, they have never been attacked by Egypt and Jordan since those treaties were signed.

But apparently I do not have all the information that you do. So I ask you to please enlighten me with the dates and details of those attacks.


If I am indeed correct and they have not been attacked since signing those treaties, then logic would say that giving back land has been their ONLY successul method of obtaining peace. Alternatively, they have used military strikes numerous times against those who attack them, and that has never resulted in peace.

What makes you think the current military campaign will end with a different result than the 2006 campaign into Lebenon?


Using your military to fight against terrorism is like pouring gasoline into a fire. Terrorism feeds on violence, and no amount of military will achieve the desired end result, unless your plan is to commit genocide and kill all 1.5 million people in Gaza. That is the only amount of military that will end the terrorism. Any smaller military response will just further anger those who have not been killed into giving more support to Hamas.


As for them putting their military sites near residential areas, while that is true, I'm pretty sure the citizens of Gaza will not see things the way you do. If your family was killed by a bomb dropped in an attack by another country, and if that country blamed the fact that the US government put a military storage facility in your neigborhood, would you blame the US government for your famliy's death or would you blame those who dropped the bomb? I'm pretty sure you would blame those who dropped the bomb. And BTW, most of these "military locations" that Israel has been bombing are actually Police Stations. Hamas doesn't actually have a military. They have a police force.

[X5rolls]

Thanks for the historical viewpoint. It does fill in some blank spaces.

Originally Posted by B-Line

PSK,

You've only been here a short while and probably don't know particular points of view, but please understand that Eric, while Jewish,
A) Believes that Israel does not have the right to protect itself using retaliatory measures against aggressors.
B) Believes that Sept 11th was planned and executed by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney in an effort to protect Haliburton from a law suit.
C) Believes that we can have world peace by everyone sitting in a drum circle and singing "We shall overcome"...
D) Believes that everyone is entitled to a better tomorrow (except his own employees who he does not offer Health Insurance.)
E) Is still, after two years, 4121 posts, and a ton of pot stirring, is still not a paid member of this forum, which he frequently visits, enjoys and benefits from, but refuses to contribute to it's operating expenses.
F) Believes that Israel is the aggressor and trouble maker in the Middle East and if only they gave back land, suddenly, all of their enemies would come together, open their arms, and welcome Israel into the Middle East union and would welcome the Jews into their homes and would even push to have their Muslim daughters marry into an Israeli Jewish family...

[XFive3.0]

They've been fighting for thousands of years. What makes you think they can find peace amongst each other today?

I hope Obama doesnt go in there and try to intervene...its thier war, let them fight it. just my 2 cents.

[pski215]

Technically Hamas is a paramilitary organization, but thats besides the point. Israel has not used any military action against Hamas in a very long time while Israeli citizens were constantly being barraged with Qassam rockets, I have ran to the shelters during the tseva adom sirens which means color red and you only have 15 seconds to get into a shelter. At this point in my life I am just advocating peace but if Israel has to defend its citizens then by all means they have my support as long as they are not intentionally killing civilians which many media outlets and the UN are stating which in my eyes is considered as false because if Israel wanted to completely demolish Gaza we all know they have weapons that could do so.

Eric what if Canada was launching missiles into New York? would you feel lets go talk to those very nice canadians and touch eachother and everything would be okay or would you feel something had to be done?

What you and the rest of the "look at war mongering Israelis" tend to realize is that Egypt and Arab nation is also blocking the Gaza border from the South due to Hamas etc. Now do not get me wrong I do not feel that the Gazans deserve this and I too wish everything could be resolved peacefully however look at the current state of civilization.

Israel pulled out of Gaza over three years ago and did not take any military action on Hamas they built up their stock of weapons and captured Israeli soldiers and are still holding Galid Shalit. The Israeli government was acting as puppets and finally they stood up and said enough. I wish I saw Palestinians up rising against Hamas because while I see civilians in Gaza suffering I do not see Hamas leaders doing anything but telling civilians to become suicide bombers in fact Israel and Egypt have done more for the civilians in Gaza. Instead of spending money to provoke Israel Hamas could spend money on the health care, however Hamas does not want to negotiate with Israel they want to provoke Israel.

Innocent people on both sides are being injured, killed and traumatized BOTH sides have committed wrongs, BUT any sovereign nation has the right to protect itself from being attacked whether 2 people die or 2000 people die.