im surprised there have not been posts about the Hamas, Israel conflict.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by Eric5273

Two questions for you:

1) The only way you will weaken Hamas is to weaken their support among the Palestinean public. Currently they have about a 60% approval rating. Care to give a suggestion on how that can be accomplished?

Sure, bomb the living shit out of them till they realize that supporting Hamas is only going to lead to further death, pain, anguish, etc.

2) In 1995, Hamas had less than a 15% approval rating among the Palestinean public. Now it is over 60%. What do you think caused it to go up so much?

Well, in 1995 they had Arafat and the PLO. I'm sure if the Republican party in America suddenly disappeared or became totally useless, the Libertarian party would gain steam and possible also have a 60% approval rating.

Giving land for peace will do nothing to end the Arab hatred of a Jewish state. They hated the Jews before Israel was a state and they hate them more now. They throw a rock, Israel should throw a boulder... Maybe they'll eventually learn to stop throwing rocks.. And if they don't, there are plenty of boulders.

[ylwjacket]

Originally Posted by B-Line

I'm sure if the Republican party in America suddenly disappeared or became totally useless, the Libertarian party would gain steam and possible also have a 60% approval rating.

Umm, not to thread jack, but this Republican isn't so sure that this hasn't already happened.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Sure, bomb the living shit out of them till they realize that supporting Hamas is only going to lead to further death, pain, anguish, etc.

You are not serious, are you? Bombing people has the exact opposite result. If we have learned a single thing from history, it is that people rally around their leadership when they are attacked, regardless of the reasons for the attack. People never realize that the policies of their leaders may have provoked the attack.

Even unpopular leaders like George W. Bush and Joseph Stalin achieved 90+% approval ratings after their countries were attacked.

Put yourself in their shoes. If an the American president's policies caused great harm to people somewhere in the world (I say this as if it was a hypothetical question), and then that country attacked us in our homeland and caused someone in your family to be killed, who would you blame?

In fact, a better question is this:

What sort of attack would on the United States would it take for you, as an America citizen to "realize that supporting" our government "is only going to lead to further death, pain, anguish, etc."? What if they dropped a thousand bombs on your city? Would that convince you? Or would such attacks simply cause you to get more angry at those who were attacking you? What if they even told you that the reason for the attacks was the leadership you elected? Would that convince you?

My guess is that no amount of violence would cause you to blame our own leaders. Am I wrong?


People in different parts of the world may have different customs and religions, but we are all wired the same way when it comes to things like loyalty and patriotism. And unfortunately, the majority of us blindly follow our leaders. I don't know if that is ever going to change, and I greatly doubt that Israel is going to change this. If they are to achieve their desired result, they need a different strategy. This one will only make the problem worse.


But if you disagree with me, I would be glad to place a wager with anyone that this time next year, if there are no rockets being fired into Israel from Gaza, it will be because of some negotiated treaty between Hamas and Israel, and not because Israel has scared Hamas and the people in Gaza into submission with their attacks.

[blondboinsd]

I don't know why you are trying B, he refused to answer when you flat out called him 100% out AND he is too cheap to become a premier member NOT to mention he won't even spend money on health insurance for his employees

Need we say more about the man know as "eric"

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by blondboinsd

NOT to mention he won't even spend money on health insurance for his employees

You keep bringing this up. I'm not too cheap to spend the money. The money does not exist. Do you tell homeless people they are too cheap to buy a house? If my company does better in the future and I can afford to provide health care, then I will. But for now I would have to close the doors on my company and go out of business if that was a requirement.

If you don't want me to post here anymore, then just tell me to get lost. But making fun of me because I don't have as much money as you is uncalled for.

[JCL]

Eric:

I am glad you posted in this thread. It caused me to go look up a few things that you and B-Line posted, to learn more.

At this point, I think you are ahead on points. That may be partly because I don't think that "bombing the living s**t out of them" is any way to achieve peace, and I do think that world opinion matters.

[ylwjacket]

this has certainly been an interesting debate to follow.

as for health insurance, i know how expensive that is, as a small business guy myself.

owning a small business is not something that many people understand. a few here do, but not most.

oh no - i almost, sort of, agreed with Eric. it is a new year!

[MrLabGuy]

You can't negotiate with terrorists. The violence will never end because Radical Islam preaches death and won't stop because of a peace treaty or cease fire. Until the world realizes Radical Islam and those who preach death and hate need to be eradicated we will have this conflict.

Ask yourself this question:

Would Israel continue to attack the Palistianians if they accepted Israel and ceased the violence against them? The answer is NO.

Would Hammas and the Palestinians continue to attack and hate Israelis if they stopped attacking the Palestinians and Hammas? The answer is Yes.

There you go. Israel has every right to defend itself from the constant threat to their sovereignty and the only way to do this is to eradicate that threat. It comes down to Kill or be Killed.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by JCL

Eric:

I am glad you posted in this thread. It caused me to go look up a few things that you and B-Line posted, to learn more.

At this point, I think you are ahead on points. That may be partly because I don't think that "bombing the living s**t out of them" is any way to achieve peace, and I do think that world opinion matters.

JCL,

Do you realize that by supporting Eric's view what you are actually saying is:
The way to get Hamas to stop launching missiles at Israel is to give them military, strategic positions of land.
- This means you are actually rewarding them for their attacks on innocent civilians and children.. Thus further encouraging other hostile and terrorist organizations to conclude that prolonged terrorist attacks will also lead to land rewards in the future.

You don't give a dog a cookie for biting your hand.

Furthermore, as a Jew, as a Zionist, I can tell you, neither the people of Israel or myself could give a flying care about the court of world opinion.

You need to remember that Israel is a country that is largely populated by survivors of the holocaust that no other countries wanted to take in, including the countries that expelled and tried to exterminate them.

So what the Canadians, the French, the Germans, etc. think in regards to the way Israel chooses to defend itself against terrorists who want to push the Jews into the sea is entirely MOOT.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by Eric5273

You are not serious, are you? Bombing people has the exact opposite result. If we have learned a single thing from history, it is that people rally around their leadership when they are attacked, regardless of the reasons for the attack. People never realize that the policies of their leaders may have provoked the attack.

God I love it when Eric makes gross statements that can easily be refuted with just one pic.


Secondly, wars are not won in the court of public opinion. WWI was not won that way. WWII was not won that way. The Civil War was not won that way.
The way you win a war is by taking your enemy, smashing them over the head with high ordinance munitions, sending in ground troops and tanks and killing their leader. And if a new leader pops up, kill him too.

- I don't see the people of Japan attacking the United States for dropping a bomb on Nagasaki. I don't see the Germans mounting terrorist attacks against Russia.

You don't win a war by giving the enemy military strategic strong points and rewarding them for acts of violence...
You pound the shit out of them with everything you have until they realize:

A) They must accept Israel as a country.
B) They do not get lands back that they used to use to mount terrorist attacks from. Sorry...
C) You do not give land back to your enemy that is NEVER going to cease trying to end the existence of a Jewish state.

- Do you really think Eric if everything you said you wanted to do was done, Arab violence against Jews would stop in the Middle East and everything would be HUMPTY DORY?

- And lets say Israel does do EVERYTHING you suggest, then they continue to be attacked in the same manner. Would you then advocate Israeli response to be UNLIMITED?? Of course not.. And neither would the rest of the world. So why should Israel weaken it's military by giving strategic land when EVERYONE knows, the violence will not end.

Arabs have been killing Jews in the middle east since god invented sand.