I just wanna ad that AMG wit active Airmatic chassies is a dream to drive, however, i think the choice is easy made.
Just ask your self this
Am I a Benz person or BMW
I dont se it just as a ride but a lifestyle :)
When i had my benz, wel i had the HP confort a loads of buttons, but it was not BMW :)
PS. Count on that loaded AMG will give you as mutch hassle as any X on this forum :)
Mine did...

Responses to your thoughts with some more of mine....
 

I agree with you vinunevro about the E70's front suspension. While the air suspension on the ML63 is very good, and in the "comfort mode" provides a pleasant ride, I think the E70's is better for better all around handling in the twisties. But keep in mind, no SUV/SAV (M-B, BMW or Porsche), will ever be mistaken for a sports car in the turns due to their much higher center of gravity and greater weight. It will be very interesting to all of us to find out what engine(s) BMW will make available for the E70(5.4?)is for model years 2009 and 2010. Will they put in the twin turbo V8 that will be offered in the X6 or something different? For my interests, the E70 will need at least 400 bhp to make it stack up favorably on all counts with the competition from M-B, Porsche, etc. From what I have seen and heard from one friend who went the Porsche Cayenne route, the build quality is very good, the tweaked engine for 2008 is very nice, but I just don't like the way the vehicle looks, both originally and now with the even larger front grille openings for 2008. (BTW, I also don't like the minor face lift M-B gave to the 2009 ML63 with chrome underpanels in the front and rear. Too much of a rap/bling factor for my taste......).

As far as M-B build quality, my 2007 ML63 is as good and in some ways better than both of my prior BMW X5's. Specifically, the electronics/audio system is a definite improvement over what was available at the time in the X5, where I did have a couple of on-again/off-again electronic gremlins. Also, having gotten used to the iDrive in my wife's BMW 335ci, I can work it ok, but still prefer the ML's "one-button" simplicity and convenience for many basic functions versus the distracting and therefore potentially dangerous requirement of several joy-knob pushes of the iDrive knob while looking at the screen to accomplish a similar desired functional result for the audio system, navigation or phone.

Also, I disagree with your blanket statement that "almost every product by M-B is substandard in terms of engineering and quality". That is just not true, as most generalizations are not. As someone who has owned a Mercedes-Benz for 34 years, (a 1961 190SL) and a BMW since 2001 (7 years), I recognize and appreciate both marques for their unique position, history and offerings, recognizing that all mfgrs. have some periods of problems with quality, (i.e. Audi in the 80's and M-B. from 1999 - 2001).

Unlike E5M1R's statement/question, asking if "you are either a Benz person or BMW person", my wife and I do not envision ourselves as one or the other. We don't want to limit ourselves to being classified by others as having to be either a dogmatic BMW or M-B patron or affectionato. Both M-B and BMW have spent much time and many $ marketing their respective brands and associated "lifestyles". We find aspects of both appealing, even though my wife tends to be a bit more pro-BMW than I am, probably because she is not a SUV person. God knows, I have spent a small fortune on all sorts of BMW & M-B accessories for all of our cars over the years.

Based on both companies historical quest for innovation, I think both M-B and BMW make some of the finest cars available today, building on pasts successes (and failures). It is odd that they seem to take turns in various model runs, by providing vehicles that combine the factors that appeal to most of us. I don't blindly choose and stick with any one company. I have to be satisfied that their cars work for me, specifically appealing to my sense of design, my personal aesthetic tastes, overall build quality, functionality, durability, "fun factor", performance and yes, unfortunately and ultimately, affordability. One thing that I think we both can probably agree on is that most Japanese vehicle offerings have left me cold, but they are definitely getting better and more competitive to M-B and BMW.

Finally, no car from M-B or BMW is perfect and probably never will be. Both AMG and M-Series vehicles, being more high strung may be prone to even more hassles, especially since us enthusiasts tend to drive them harder than owners of less spirited models. Also, as we demand that more and more features be included in our vehicles they will become even more complicated and more prone to periodic failure. My experience is that the mechanics and interior fit-out on both the BMW and M-B work just fine for the most part and are of high quality. It is the ever-more complicated electronics that have the most minor and major problems that cause us headaches. This is where both M-B and BMW could learn from the Japanese and their far superior electronics (i.e. touch screens). It will be very interesting to see if the upcoming new BMW 5-series (and subsequent other BMW's) will be getting an Apple-based audio/video/telephone interface that has been rumored for some time now....

Finally, (and you thought this diatribe would never end...), the way I look at it, when I drive either my ML63 AMG or my wife's BMW 335ci, I always start out with a smile on my face. Isn't that what all of us are basically looking for when we drive any of our vehicles....?

AVB-AMG
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif

Wow, very entertaining post!:thumbup:
Let me ask you something AVB. Do you think M-B lost stature (at least in vinunevro's eyes, and many others I'm sure) because of the failed Daimler-Chrysler 10 year experiment? That's my guess, but I'm curious to get your take. What I saw from my vantage point in the late 90s was an elite German carmaker diluting their brand and reputation (and maybe even parts and materials??). One had to ask themselves: am I getting a true German Mercedes, or am I getting a Chrysler with a Mercedes logo?

MB used to be a great company, but they've been floundering for at least a decade now. What about the company (today) is so great? Compared to BMW, are they the ones the first to use a new suspension design for an SUV, are they creating twin-vgt high efficiency engines, the first to use fiber-optics for vehicle data systems, as good at engineering handling/vehicle dynamics, using individual-throttle bodies, using new crankcase materials, styling their vehicles such that the industry copies, winning car-comparison tests, etc etc etc? And as far as the examples I've seen, getting good manufactuing quality in an MB is like playing the lottery.

MB used to be a great company, but they've been floundering for at least a decade now. What about the company (today) is so great? Compared to BMW, are they the ones the first to use a new suspension design for an SUV, are they creating twin-vgt high efficiency engines, using fiber-optics for vehicle data systems, as good at engineering handling/vehicle dynamics, using individual-throttle bodies, using new crankcase materials, styling their vehicles such that the industry copies, winning car-comparison tests, using direct-yaw awd, etc etc etc? And as far as the examples I've seen, getting good manufactuing quality in an MB is like playing the lottery.

M-B & BMW: The Bigger Picture
 

StanF18:
It appears that I have set myself up as the defender of Mercedes-Benz compared to BMW. Oh well, I will try to provide more of my perspective as a happy owner of both marques. A decade ago, I thought the acquisition, (not a merger), by Daimler-Benz of Chrysler made sense. The idea of German precision and American entrepenureship sounded like a good idea or at least an interesting experiment. I felt so positive of the union that I bought stock in the combined company. Needless to say, it was a poor financial investment and I sold at a steep loss. I won't waste your time in regurgitating why it did not work, but was glad to see Daimler finally sell 80% of Chrysler and wished they had dumped the other 20% as well. I think that Chrysler benefited more from adapting some M-B engines and other components in their vehicles than the other way around. M-B was concerned about that perception. Ultimately the culture clash was insurmountable, combined with egos getting in the way.

Keep in mind that in the mid-1990's, both Mercedes-Benz and BMW made strategic decisions to manufacture some of their automobiles in the USA, (M-B in Alabama and BMW in South Carolina). Benefiting from a non-union, low cost labor force than what they would have paid in Germany or Austria. The initial downside to those decisions were the perception of both Americans and Europeans that the vehicles produced in the American plants would be of inferior quality compared to the cars made in Europe. Initially, those concerns turned out to be somewhat true and both BMW and Mercedes had to spend much time, effort and money to improve the quality control at these plants. The result is, in my opinion, that both BMW X5's and M-B ML's produced in the USA are as good as their sister German/Austrian produced cars.

On another note, I do think that both M-B and BMW are struggling trying to figure out how to remain successful moving forward in an ever-more competitive international market where there is an over capacity of manufacturing of automobiles (i.e. the 3 major U.S. car makers) Combine this with a reluctance of many manufacturers to face the inevitable reality that we the consumer, regardless of nationality, want good quality vehicles that are dependable and reliable and will not buy cars that don't meet that criteria. With the Chinese market rapidly maturing and becoming a consumer and producer force in the automobile market, it will be very interesting to see what alliances they promote and what vehicles the Chinese people demand. Smaller, yet wealthier auto producers, like Porsche find the acquisition of VW attractive since that would allow them to diversify while still meeting the ever more restrictive fuel requirement in Germany and the EU. BMW has historically been the only true independent car company of its size that has been financially strong enough to remain independent.

Also, with the steady increase of fuel costs, we Americans are finally realizing and experiencing what the rest of the world already knows and has to live with. Gasoline and diesel fuel prices that are at a minimum, 3x what we have had to pay per gallon. I am just as guilty as most every other American in my stubborn resistance to migrate to a more fuel efficient vehicle that also happens to be fun to drive. I realize that at some point in the not-to-distant future all of us will be driving some form of econo-box that probably will not be nearly as much fun as what we all are driving now. Our era will have passed...

Addressing some of vinunervo's comments:

"MB used to be a great company, but they've been floundering for at least a decade now. What about the company (today) is so great? Compared to BMW, are they the ones the first to use a new suspension design for an SUV, are they creating twin-vgt high efficiency engines, using fiber-optics for vehicle data systems, as good at engineering handling/vehicle dynamics, using individual-throttle bodies, using new crankcase materials, styling their vehicles such that the industry copies, winning car-comparison tests, using direct-yaw awd, etc etc etc? And as far as the examples I've seen, getting good manufacturing quality in an MB is like playing the lottery."

Ok, here it goes:

• Mercedes-Benz was the first automobile company to introduce pneumatic air suspension on an SUV.
• Their AMG engines are true hand-made works of art, producing amazing torque and bhp.
• M-B introduced fiber-optics at the same time as BMW for their audio systems and had some of the same problems in their vehicles with the cables coming loose, (it happened to me on both my X5 and E430).
• The Japanese auto mfgrs. have been stealing the design ideas of both M-B and BMW for years, primarily in exterior styling.
• I have been subscribing to most American automobile magazines for years and recognize the distinct bias towards BMW, seeing how the Bimmer will usually get the nod over its competitors in a close numerical comparison, usually winning on the subjective evaluations. I do agree that BMW's as a rule have been the better all around performance vehicles in these sort of limited road tests.
• Audi gets the prize for being the leader of the German auto mfgrs. with AWD. Both M-B and BMW have finally introduced AWD systems that approach the quality of Audi's Quattro system.

Unfortunately, we all have to face the odds that something will not be as intended, will fail or malfunction on all of our BMW and M-B cars. They are machines subjected to the weather elements, road conditions, abuse from us the driver, as well as dependent on us to properly maintain them. I do think that M-B and BMW are just now catching up to the build quality offered by Lexus for well over the past decade. What both M-B and BMW have over their Japanese competitors is a rich history of innovation, creativity, concern for safety and an amazing auto racing heritage that has influenced the design of engines and suspensions for their road cars. I hope that their joint venture effort exploring new hybrid / diesel and other fuel efficient engines will produce some amazing results. We will see....

AVB-AMG
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif

Before I switched to BMW in 2004, our household had 14 new Mercedes-Benz cars from 1997-2004! So, I know Mercedes really well (even had 2 old, diesel Benzes during that period).

Yes, the Merger between between MBZ and Chrysler did hurt Mercedes, but as SO MANY people are confused...Mercedes took over Chrysler. Chrysler was essentially a German ran American car company.

From many inside sources that we have at major US MBZ dealerships, the main problem for Mercedes began in 1998/1999 when Mercedes began getting a lot (almost the majority) of their parts from former Easter Bloc countries, opposed to getting them from native Germany, or "western Europe". Mercedes was pouring SO much money into Chrysler, that to save money, they cost cutted with their own parts, for the Benz brand. As MBZ found out fairly quickly...bad, bad decision. MBZ has really, really turned around, and many of their vehicles now have great reliability, and their designs are classically German. Mercedes hasn't irritated a lot of buyers, as BMW has with "flame surfacing" and odd Bangle designs.

I've had 8 Bimmers since 2004, and most have been really good. A lot of us forget, before MBZ declined in ratings....BMW was known for being a lot of maintenance. Still in Germany, almost every taxi is a MBZ, because traditionally they have a very long road life.

Thanks
 

Just wanted to say Thank you to

• X5Jay
• S5M1R
• StanF18
• vinuneuro
• deutsch100

for expressing your opinions and hearing all of your interesing comments. I don't expect that we will always agree on all of these issues discussed here, but I do respect your opinions and enjoy discussing them. I look forward to hearing and participating in future threads on other topics.

AVB-AMG
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif

I like you, AVB-AMG. Welcome. Excellent comments.

To me, the ML63 AMG is a very desirable 'ute, but like all others have said, quite different from the X5.

In my humble opinion the BMW is not wanting for power. 350hp is more than adequate on a daily basis, not to mention its effortless passing power, sexy exhaust note and a ride/handling balance that is second to none.

It is also realistically about $25K less than the Merc, although not the one you're looking at, I suppose.

But if you want the power that pushes it "over the top," go for the Merc. You'll suffer in terms of dynamics, but when it all comes down to it, these are still big, heavy SUVs, and there's a limit on how much fun you can really have in the corners. I still vote for the X5--but only by a hair.

BMW X5(E70) vs. M-B ML63 AMG (W164)
 

X5audi:

Thanks for your kind words. My responses to your posted thoughts are:

:iagree: I agree with you that the BMW X5 (E70) and the M-B ML63 AMG (W164) are different vehicles. I dare say that the current ML63 is more of a "Sports Activity Vehicle" (SAV) than the current X5 is. I owned/leased both an '01 followed by an '04, BMW X5 (E53). They both were really more of a SAV (marketing aside...), due to their slightly smaller size and no pretending to be an off-road vehicle compared to the larger and more traditional SUV's which had true off-road capabilities. When BMW evolved the E53 into the E70 for the '07 model year, it grew in size to accommodate the third row seat option, to meet that market demand, something that I have no interest in. When I test drove one of the first available E70's at my local Dealer in the spring of 2007 my impression in comparison to the E53 was favorable except for the following issues that were and are important to me:

- It was and felt like a larger vehicle and did not handle as crisply as my E53. The E70 had more body roll in the turns.

- The 4.8 L engine's increased hp helped the E70 somewhat but I felt that its acceleration was just a tad bit slower than my 4.4L E53. (This may not have been a fair comparison since the engine of the E70 I test drove had only approx. 75 miles on it and my E53 engine was completely broken in....)

- BMW's iDrive is something that I found then and still find to be a really good concept that unfortunately in is current somewhat improved state is still unnecessarily complex and requires too much distracting effort.

- At that time in March '07, the Aero Kit was not available yet for the E70 and when it finally was I found it to be too much of a minor change from the stock vehicle. I had full body Aero Kits installed on both my '01 and '04 E53 (in Brilliant Silver) which truly differentiated the vehicle from the stock E53's that were becomming ever more popular and appearing in neighboring driveways. I was disappointed that BMW migrated away from the monochromatic body color style of the Aero Kit for the E70 version. The German M Sport Package for the E70 that became available in the summer of '07 is a mixed bag in my opinion. I think the rear looks great but the front was awful, looking like a really bad aftermarket attempt of customization. See for yourself by reading the article and viewing the photos at the following web site link:
http://www.egmcartech.com/2007/06/01...port-unveiled/

- Finally, I was thoroughly embarassed that it took me about one full minute to figure out how to open the glove compartment on the E70. I did not notice the button on the left side for what seem like an eternity!... (and I am an Architect!)!ouch:

Engine Power:

You are correct and I also agree that 350 hp is more than adequate on a daily basis for the vast majority of people who consider buying and ultimately do buy an X5 (E70). The 4.8L engine in the E70 does not give the vehicle as much "pep" as the similar engine did for the X5 4.6i and subsequent X5 4.8i E53 models due to the E70's increased size and weight. I admit that I am one of the few aficionados for whom more horse power really is more desirable, allowing for much quicker acceleration and the primal masculine thrill that results from it. :rofl:
I rationalize that it makes the vehicle safer for entering congested highways, as well as being a heck of alot of fun! Since the US speed limits are what they are, top speed capability is not really an issue here, with or without factory-installed limiters.

As far as comparison of each vehicle's "exhaust note", the ML63 AMG wins hands down, IMHO, (not....!). Go to the YouTube website links below to hear for yourself the sweat gutteral exhaust sounds of the ML63 AMG while accelerating.:zoom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjBgtVRjO6A&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxWRg...eature=related

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that by going with the ML63 you "will "suffer in terms of dynamics". Since the '07 ML63 is about the same size as my last '04 X5 (E53), I found that they both have very similar handling characteristics in the turns, with the BMW being just a tad bit tighter than the the M-B, (with both having their respective traction control systems fully engaged). The larger brakes on the ML appear to provide shorter stopping distances, in my opinion. Excluding the acceleration factor, the overall ride, handling and balance for each vehicle is very similar with my nod going to the ML63, due primarily to the fact that it is a slightly smaller sized vehicle in its length and height than the X5 (E70) and the added power allows me to power out of turns in a way that just is not possible with either the E53 or current E70. BTW, the ML63 has a dead weight of 5,063 lbs. vs. the X5 (E70) weight of 5,335 lbs, a difference of 272 lbs.

As far as the cost comparison between a fully option loaded '07 BMW X5 (E70) and a fully option loaded '07 ML63 AMG, using MSRP for the base price, all options and destination/delivery charge, I found that the difference was only about $10,000. The X5 was approx. $84,000 and the ML63 approx. $95,000. The BMW & M-B Dealers I contacted were all willing to negotiate approx. 5% off of those prices to make a deal. You are correct that if you decide to go with less options you can get a very nice X5 (E70) for $70,000 (MSRP).

I am probalby in the category of drivers whose car preferences and therefore requirements include power and acceleration that most people would consider "over the top". I decided to go with the ML63 instead of the X5 (E70) for this reason. The obvious downside is the added cost of the ML63 and poor gas milage that for me is compensated by being such a fun vehicle to drive. Since I lease my cars I am not too concerned with the big hit of depreciation that all AMG owner's get in the first 1-2 years of vehicle ownership, :( (which makes one seriously consider the value of buying vs. leasing.)

I am going to be very interested to see what BMW, M-B, and yes even Audi, will be offering for the model years 2010 and 2011, when my lease ends in mid-2010 on the ML63. Will the Auto Mfgrs. come up with some form of hybrid engine that will provide both breathtaking acceleration when desired, yet allow for more sane and economical motoring for most of the time? Will we all be suffering even more then with what will most likely be even more insane gasoline and desiel fuel costs..... Who knows?

For the times I really want to get good gas mileage and have true fun driving in the "twisties" and don't need to haul all of our stuff on a long trip, I borrow my wife’s 2007 BMW 335i twin turbo coupe w/sport pkg. since it gets well over 22 mpg on average.

BTW - another observation about BMW vs. Mercedes-Benz, as a result of our two acquisitions in 2007. BMW provides their "Assist" system (vs. the M-B version called “TeleAid”, free-of-charge for the first four (4) years of car ownership, whereas M-B TeleAid is free for just the 1st year then $240/year after that. Also my wife's BMW 335i comes with regular maintenance / service covered free-of-charge for the first 4-years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first. M-B used to have this program as well, (my '04 E55 was covered under it). Unfortunately, M-B decided last year to discontinue this program due to its high cost to them, transferring that cost to us owners. Oh well...

Anyone else want to share their thoughts on any of this...? :stickpoke

(ok, I just discovered how to insert all of these silly smilies, please forgive me.)

AVB-AMG
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/images...es/driving.gif

My current & recent car history:
2007 Mercedes-Benz ML63 AMG (Daily Driver)
1961 Mercedes-Benz 190SL (prof. restored fair weather weekend joy ride, owned for 33 years)
2007 BMW 335ci twin turbo coupe (wife's sweet car)
2004 Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG (Leased/Returned)
2004 BMW X5 4.4i (w/full Aero Kit - Leased/Returned)
2001 BMW X5 4.4i (w/full Aero Kit - Leased/Returned)
2000 Mercedes-Benz E430 Sport (Leased/Returned)