3 Series Purchase help

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by GoVols!

Thanks for proving my point with the above data.

I didn't prove your point.

Look at the bottom of the chart where it shows annual fuel costs. The 335d would save about $382 per year over a 328i base on the mileage and fuel prices provided. Seeing as you can buy a 328i for $15,000 less than a 335d how many years would it take to make up the difference? Let me rephrase that, how many decades would it take?

[JCL]

Originally Posted by GoVols!

I'd also like to see the current sales figures for the 335d.

Found some numbers, although a bit of extrapolation is required, so I stand to be corrected if someone finds better numbers. The following is for BMW diesel cars, and doesn't get into the SUV sales.

The Diesel Driver offered up some US diesel sales figures late last year, and promptly got blasted for misleading data. Their problem was that they compared the 335d to the 335i, ignored all other 3 series models sold in the US, and claimed that diesel sales were better than gasoline engine sales in some months (which they were, if you only looked at those two models). They also claimed that the diesel X5 was outselling the gasoline model, but had only looked at the discontinued 30i X5 and ignored the 35i replacement, let alone all the other X5 models. Not quite truth in advertising.

If we accept their figures for units, however, there were 2748 335d units sold in the first three quarters of 2010. Straight line extrapolation would put that at just less than 3700 units for the full year (about the same as the Z4). Separately, BMW reported sales of 101,000 3 series units in the US in 2010, and 172,000 cars (not includes X3/5/6 and mini). So, it looks like diesel cars were about 3.7% of 3 series sales, and 2.1% of all BMW car sales in the US. Essentially, double the prior year. I wonder what the break-even volume is. Maybe they are there, in which case the various sales incentives may not go on for long.

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by JCL

So the 99% of BMW car purchasers in the US in 2009 that picked a gasoline engine model, compared to the 1% that picked a diesel model, were just ill-informed? Looks like BMW has some education to do then.

I wouldn't say 99% but you gotta admit a large percentage of people
tend to just follow everyone else when it comes to most anything.

Vehicles are no exception. The American consumer is a prime example of a culture bent on consuming impractical, wasteful, consumer products.
They follow the line of least resistance believing whatever they are told. Here's a good example of how people are being fed mis-information regarding todays diesel.

Why Do People Choose Not to Drive Diesel Engine Cars By RJ Performance

[GoVols!]

Originally Posted by FSETH

I didn't prove your point.

Look at the bottom of the chart where it shows annual fuel costs. The 335d would save about $382 per year over a 328i base on the mileage and fuel prices provided. Seeing as you can buy a 328i for $15,000 less than a 335d how many years would it take to make up the difference? Let me rephrase that, how many decades would it take?

I never said the d was a substitute for a 328 based on fuel savings alone. Of course you're never going to make up that difference. The true comparison is between the two 335 models.

Also, if you read my comments above, I said that if I was buying a vehicle in this category today, I would get the Infiniti G37. All the 3 series models are overpriced for what you get, in my opinion. The new G really has closed the gap performance wise with the current 3 and it's standard features will cost you big bucks on the 3. No, it's not the same as a BMW but for $15k I can deal with the tiny gap. I hope this changes with the new 3 but we'll see at what cost.

[GoVols!]

Originally Posted by JCL

Found some numbers, although a bit of extrapolation is required, so I stand to be corrected if someone finds better numbers. The following is for BMW diesel cars, and doesn't get into the SUV sales.

The Diesel Driver offered up some US diesel sales figures late last year, and promptly got blasted for misleading data. Their problem was that they compared the 335d to the 335i, ignored all other 3 series models sold in the US, and claimed that diesel sales were better than gasoline engine sales in some months (which they were, if you only looked at those two models). They also claimed that the diesel X5 was outselling the gasoline model, but had only looked at the discontinued 30i X5 and ignored the 35i replacement, let alone all the other X5 models. Not quite truth in advertising.

If we accept their figures for units, however, there were 2748 335d units sold in the first three quarters of 2010. Straight line extrapolation would put that at just less than 3700 units for the full year (about the same as the Z4). Separately, BMW reported sales of 101,000 3 series units in the US in 2010, and 172,000 cars (not includes X3/5/6 and mini). So, it looks like diesel cars were about 3.7% of 3 series sales, and 2.1% of all BMW car sales in the US. Essentially, double the prior year. I wonder what the break-even volume is. Maybe they are there, in which case the various sales incentives may not go on for long.

I don't disagree that you can make stats say whatever you want but here is the interesting thing in my mind....

If the diesel is 4% of 3er sales, what % is the 335i? If it's similar, then the numbers above don't show an avoidance of the diesel itself but of big engines and hence cost. Makes me think that 90% of 3er buyers are just looking for the cheapest way to get into the BMW name and don't care at all about the higher performance models.

[GoVols!]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

I wouldn't say 99% but you gotta admit a large percentage of people
tend to just follow everyone else when it comes to most anything.

Vehicles are no exception. The American consumer is a prime example of a culture bent on consuming impractical, wasteful, consumer products.
They follow the line of least resistance believing whatever they are told. Here's a good example of how people are being fed mis-information regarding todays diesel.

Why Do People Choose Not to Drive Diesel Engine Cars By RJ Performance

Wow. Just wow.

[GoVols!]

Originally Posted by JCL

FSETH's graph certainly shows some good numbers for the comparison. I tend not to use US government figures, because they aren't close to reality, and there are so many correction factors that I think the tests are not reproducable. I use either Transport Canada, or the UK government figures. Going with the UK figures, because they are listed conveniently on www.bmw.co.uk, the 335d has a 0-62 mph time of 6.0. The 335i is at 5.6, the 325 is at 6.7, and the 330 (when it was listed) was down the middle of those, same as the 328, very close to the 335d. Yes, it is only one aspect of performance. The mileage of the 335d on the combined cycle is listed as 42.2 mpg (remember that is Imperial gallons). The 335i is at 34 mpg, the 325 is at 39 mpg, and the 323 (when it was listed) was at 42. The 320i is listed at 44. My analogy therefore wasn't correct. It should have been the mileage of the 323, the acceleration of the 328/330, and the cost of the 335i. I will further grant you that in the US, you got rebates so that the 35d didn't cost that much. The rest of us don't get those rebates.

I don't have a concern over running my BMW gasoline engines to redline most times I drive them, after they are properly warmed up. It has not resulted in increased oil consumption or engine wear. If you read posts by wallyx5, he discusses his 300,000 mile 3.0 X5 that he regularly runs at high speeds. These engines do much better with that use than they do on short trips and at idle.

If your 35d works for you, that is fantastic. They are great engines. My only comment would be that if you like to take advantage of the low speed torque, and keep engine rpms down, and always have throttle response available, then that is not so much a diesel characteristic as it is a turbocharged engine characteristic. Your diesel just happens to be a turbocharged design. My 535i has the same characteristics, but with the added bonus that I can rev it if I want to. It has a six speed manual, and I can pretty much shift it 1-3-5 or 2-4-6, it has far more gears than it needs in daily driving, given the available torque just off idle.

I will grant you that when I bought the X, the rebates and tax incentives brought the true price down to ~1,000 less than the 3.0 models. That decision was a no-brainer. I would think a little harder about that purchase now with the 35i models closing the performance gap. I'm not so much a diesel fan as I am a fan of getting the most power for the buck.

[Quicksilver]

This was a great thread. Thanks to all, it was very informative.
I guess what it boils down to for me is that driving diesel is
a different experience that I have enjoyed in the past.

At this point I believe i'm going to have to do some serious test drives to
get a feel for the new modern diesels before I make that jump.

[connman]

I tell you what I had the jing.. I would be driving a diesel 3 series! Having diesel VW's in the past lots of low end grunt and decent mileage. The last Jetta Diesel that I had got 53mpg with a 5 speed. I would have stoplight races with the noisy pickup trucks and would just make them mad... Thank you all for the great information, now a trip to the nice dealer to see what is on the lot. As soon as one is on the web with a standard transmission it is gone.. How is the relibility of the older models? I really like the grills and the look of the early 2000 models.. Sorry for my ignorance but does the 3 litre have a timing belt or a chain?

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by connman

How is the relibility of the older models? I really like the grills and the look of the early 2000 models.. Sorry for my ignorance but does the 3 litre have a timing belt or a chain?

Don't hold me to this, but from what I remember reading in consumer reports was that reliability got better as the years of production increased. In other words, the newer the car the more reliable it should be. This is typical with most model runs though. You can look up reliability on Consumer Reports, etc.

I am pretty sure BMW "facelifted" the e46 sedan in 2003 and the coupe in 2004. However, the M3 retained the original headlight and grill design throughout it's production life.

For anything e46 3-series related, check out e46fanatics. Tons of info over there.

E46 Fanatics: 3-Series, BMW Forums, BMW Modifications, E46 BMW

Also, should be a timing chain.