Home Forums Articles How To's FAQ Register
Go Back   Xoutpost.com > BMW SAV Forums > X5 (E53) Forum
Arnott
User Name
Password
Member List Premier Membership Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Xoutpost server transfer and maintenance is occurring....
Xoutpost is currently undergoing a planned server migration.... stay tuned for new developments.... sincerely, the management


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-05-2020, 03:00 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7
Mistermorgan is on a distinguished road
E53 2005 4.8is battery charge issue

Hey all,

Firstly I just want to say thanks to everyone who contributes here. The resources are so valuable! Apologies if this has been covered but I have scoured the pages and couldn’t find anything.

I recently carried out a tonne of work on the engine including valve stem seals and the alternator bracket gasket replacement since this I am having what I think is a voltage/charging issue. Took it for a drive and got trans fail safe error, radio turning on and off, seatbelt warning light (even though seatbelt was fastened) the car also won’t start from battery but will from a jumper pack.

So far I have swapped out to a new battery old one was at 8v and not charging and run some very basic tests
Tested continuity across all fuses with multimeter - all were fine
New battery voltage is 12.5
Battery voltage when running is 14.4 at the front jumper points
Also managed to test the voltage at B+ post on alternator and was 14.4
Battery voltage is 12.4 but decreases when idling until eventually the car stalls
Idle rpm is 700 which I believe is normal
Since this has happened I’ve run a scan and there are now 4 errors coming up on the DME they weren’t there before (see image)

I’ve read a tonne about this possibly being my alternator, I might be wrong but since it’s giving out over 14v at idle I’d assume not als possibly the ignition switch - I have a replacement coming in a few days so will swap that out and see

Am I right in assuming these issues seem to be electrical/low voltage? Is there anything else I should investigate test out?

Appreciate your help
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links

  #2  
Old 10-05-2020, 09:32 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 897
Purplefade is on a distinguished road
Check voltage at the positive battery terminal, with the battery being under voltage, you should see higher than 12.5 at the battery, if you are not, but are seeing over 14 at the alternator, it could be the “battery fuse” or “emergency battery disconnect”, apologies, I forget exactly what it is called, but it is the large “fuse” thing directly in the positive battery cable.


Sent from my iPhone using Xoutpost.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-05-2020, 10:30 AM
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 192
timmyc is on a distinguished road
There may be some pertinent info on this thread? Mostly the diagram that Qsilver7 posted. See post #7.

https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/...battery-2.html

Errors you are getting may be due to the low voltage? I have had that happen to me recently on my Honda Element when the alternator died. Had a bunch of codes. Replaced the alternator (then starter next week) and cleared codes. Good to go! But this is total speculation.

Good luck. Electrical problems suck. Be sure to post your fix when you figure it out!
__________________
2004 X5 4.4 Build 01/04 Alpine White on Schwarz Dakota Leather, Anthracite Headliner
Xtrons Android HU, SPORT PKG, COLD WEATHER PKG(W/REAR HEATED SEATS AND HEATED STEERING WHEEL), CONVENIENCE PKG, FACTORY HITCH

Last edited by timmyc; 10-05-2020 at 10:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-05-2020, 01:43 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Virigina, USA
Posts: 2,288
StephenVA is on a distinguished road
How to test....one more time

Starting & charging systems testing techniques
Without spending too much time on starting & charging systems testing techniques, here are a few quick tests to determine a battery issue, a charging system issue, or a primary wiring issue.

Tools required: Digital Volt Meter (DVM), battery terminal cleaning tool, and 8mm, 10 mm sockets and ratchet with extensions.

You need to read battery voltage before starting any test on an electrical system as it will influence the results of Starting, Charging, and electrical tests of any kind. (Note: battery must be fully charged, see chart)

Step one: Get out a digital volt meter, Read battery voltage (Key off). Read voltage (Key on) at the following points Battery, under hood jump point, and at the alternator. You only need to determine if you have 12 volts at the alternator with the key on (BIG FAT WIRE). A simple handheld digital wave form tester will get you in the ball park when it comes to batteries. (Further discussion on these testers is for another engineering forum). I have a handheld Chrysler tester that was put out in 1980 to help low skilled techs determine charging system functionality. It has three lights: Battery voltage good (12.6v), Alternator good (13.5v), Fault (anything else). That’s it. I had this in my bag of tricks when I sold auto testing equipment.
Step Two: You need to read the voltage at the BATTERY at idle, 1500, and 2500 RPM to determine voltage regulator function. Better still would be a Volt Amp tester (VAT-40 Image below) to induce a correct AMP load to read actual AMP/Volt output from the alternator and battery, as that is the only true testing method. Having a DVM that has min/max capability will make your testing easy.
Step Three: Remove and clean each and every ground in the trunk, jump point, and at the frame rail for the block (bad grounds = lots of electrical issues). Clean the starter/alternator cable connection under the car, just under the dead pedal.
Step Four: Failure to get correct output on running test means DEAD alternator (volt regulator, brushes, windings, etc.) Remove and bench test the unit or drag it to your local auto parts store for a second opinion (which will be worth exactly what you pay for it....)

Base line numbers
Battery Voltage should be 12.6+V (Key off) See chart below.
Battery voltage should be 13.5v - 14.5v on running tests (note large fluctuations at running RPMs is a SURE sign that the Volt Regulator is not doing its job. Smack with rubber hammer and retest. Rebuilt units have large variance of quality control from good 85% of the time to approx 50/50%.

NOTE: The exact charging voltage will vary according to the battery's state of charge, the load on the vehicle's electrical system, and temperature. The lower the temperature the higher the charging voltage, and the higher the temperature the lower the charging voltage. The "normal" charging voltage on a typical application might be 13.8 to 14.3 volts at 77 degrees F. But at 20 degrees F. below zero, the charging voltage might be 14.9 to 15.3 volts. On a hot engine on a hot day, the normal charging voltage might drop to 13.5 to 14.3 volts.

Note 2: TIS specifies alternator voltage as 14.3 +/-0.1 V. But that is measured at the alternator output post. The values seen using the cluster will be 0.5 V or more below the alternator voltage out put.

Battery surface charge.

What the heck is a surface charge?
When testing wet cell auto batteries, some will show a 12.xx Volt result, but as soon as a 100-150 amp load is applied, they drop straight down to 9.8V or lower. Classic example of a collapsed cell wall (internal short). This is why too many DIY and techs get stumped when they pull out a meter and say "It shows 12.xxV so it must be good”. NOPE, batteries are tested for voltage holds and AMP draw capacity as well as the ability to recover and recharge over and over again. Batteries are nothing more than an energy storage device. Their usage back in the 1920's allowed for a "self-starter" option, Now days we take it for granted. In the future we will use the engine ignition system to fire off a cyl while disabling all other cyls (opening the exhaust valves) allowing for a start that requires no electrical/mechanical starter. A topic for a SAE publication but an interesting future none the less. The challenge is for the average DIY to approx the load test with KEY OFF.

Solution: Set a volt meter to DC volts 0-25 scale or auto ranging if so equipped. Read and record voltage
Turn on everything in the car for 15 seconds:
Headlamps to high beam
Heater blower motor to high w/ A/C on
Seat Heaters
Rear Defroster (and rear seat blower if so equipped)
Interior lights
Radio
Fog lamps
Cigar lighter
etc, etc, etc

Read voltage after testing. You should see a drop off of .5-1.5Volts during the test and a slow rise back to 12.5V+ on a completely healthy and fully charged battery in 30sec to 1 min.
A battery that is DEAD, will show 9.8V or less and never recover until charged.

Battery Registration
: There is NO battery registration required for proper operations in a E39 or E53 application.

Alternator testing tips
To quote another poster...

How to load the alternator at engine idle for alternator output tests:

Note: Alternator output should be tested with the engine idling under the following four loads after at least 15 seconds of idling (for the alternator to ramp up):
Turn the high beams on
And, turn the rear defroster on
And, turn the fan on (full force, I guess)
And, turn the wipers on (to the regular setting, I guess)

These loads should be left on while the alternator output tests are being performed.

Once access to the alternator is gained (access for the I6 is vastly easier than the V8):

• Check the voltage from the alternator #30 post and ground
o It should be the same as the battery voltage
• Now disconnect the harness connector to the alternator:
• Check voltage from terminal 15 and ground (field voltage)
o It should be the same as the battery voltage

More info: Another way to check alternator output is with an oscilloscope. Observing the "ripple voltage" pattern will tell you at a glance whether or not all the alternator windings are functioning. A "good" pattern should look like the top of a picket fence. If any of the humps are missing, it means one or more of the windings is grounded or open, or there's a bad diode. Most battery/charging system testers also have a test function that can detect bad diodes.
Ripple testing with a DVM:

ANOTHER QUICK CHECK FOR BOSCH ALTERNATORS

One way to check the integrity of the alternator and diodes on Bosch alternators is to check the voltage readings at the D+ (blue wire) terminal and B+ terminal. The voltage reading should be the same at both terminals. A difference of more than one volt would indicate faulty diodes and the need to replace the alternator.
Tips link: https://www.diyauto.com/manufacturer...ion-by-bluebee

Volt Drop Testing (Image below) will show you issues with grounds and wiring problems. Read the text and test a few spots to determine if your car has clean connections.
https://www.engine-light-help.com/voltage-drop.html

Are you having other electrical issues? Alternative issues: Ign Key switch failure, wiring junction box rusted (see water leaks under passenger seat(E39), Water standing in trunk under the battery (E53) and the normal wiring broken connectors, grounds), etc....

Tip Sites for more info:
https://www.aa1car.com/library/2002/cm10220.htm
https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=510579 (Everything you wanted to know about BMW starting and charging systems for DIY)

Tip #124
Find the jump point under the hood (it is behind the little box on the drivers side firewall). Un bolt it, clean with wire brush, retighten and retest. The double nut vibrates loose after 100K.

Helpful?
Attached Thumbnails
Attached Images
     
__________________

2005 X5 4.8IS
The Blue ones are always FASTER....

Current Garage:
2005 X5 4.8is
2002 M5 TiSilver
2003 525iT
1998 528i
Former Garage Stable Highlights
2004 325XiT Sport
1973 De Tomaso Pantera, L Model
1970 Dodge Challenger T/A 4 sp Alpine White
1970 Dodge Challenger T/A 4 sp GoManGo Green
1971 Dart Sport, “Dart Light” package
1969 Road Runner 383
1968 Ply Barracuda 340S FB Sea-foam Green

Last edited by StephenVA; 10-05-2020 at 02:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-05-2020, 02:49 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Virigina, USA
Posts: 2,288
StephenVA is on a distinguished road
We need to start saying, "Any water in the trunk area around the battery?"
Water contamination seems to be a common problem as these models age away....
__________________

2005 X5 4.8IS
The Blue ones are always FASTER....

Current Garage:
2005 X5 4.8is
2002 M5 TiSilver
2003 525iT
1998 528i
Former Garage Stable Highlights
2004 325XiT Sport
1973 De Tomaso Pantera, L Model
1970 Dodge Challenger T/A 4 sp Alpine White
1970 Dodge Challenger T/A 4 sp GoManGo Green
1971 Dart Sport, “Dart Light” package
1969 Road Runner 383
1968 Ply Barracuda 340S FB Sea-foam Green
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-05-2020, 06:05 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7
Mistermorgan is on a distinguished road
Thanks guys some really useful info here on testing

Just to confirm I have tested and tightened the jump points under the hood and the battery terminal connections, also taken the alternator back out and cleaned tightened the connection there. The trunk is clean and dry car has been mainly garaged.

Will go through the above and share my findings!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-07-2020, 10:53 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7
Mistermorgan is on a distinguished road
Ok just an update here I have swapped out the ignition switch and recharged both batteries I have using a 9 stage battery charger/conditioner as well as checked/tightened grounds, jump posts and alternator b+ cable.

I still have a no start issue. with a brand new fully charged battery connected It wont turn over but will if I attach a jumper pack to the jump posts under the bonnet

Below are some of the reads from my multimeter testing

Key OFF

battery - 12.4V
Jump posts - 12v
Alt b+ 12v

Key On

Battery - 11.7v
Jump points - 8v
Alt b+ 8v

Idle (after using jump pack to start then disconnecting it)
Battery - 11.5v and decreasing over time
Jump points - 14.3v
Alternator b+ 14.3v

I'm not sure if I have a multitude of issues here - Firstly I suspect the battery is maybe a dud - Is it normal to see voltage drop below 12v as soon as it is under any load - I think I need 12.2v minimum to crank and anything less means the battery is in a state of discharge?

Also suspect there is a loose connection somewhere for me to be getting voltage drop off between battery and alternator b+ at idle. Am I in the right ball park here?

Does any of the above point to an alternator issue? I think that would be the most expensive component to replace so want to avoid doing that without being sure it will solve my issue.

Maybe also worth mentioning that the car started and ran fine (with the exception of a monumental oil leak) before I did the alternator bracket gasket so that's what is leaning me to an alternator issue

Appreciate the help with this
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-08-2020, 09:48 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Virigina, USA
Posts: 2,288
StephenVA is on a distinguished road
Battery voltage is way too low to crank and fire up without 12 codes being tripped. See chart below. Battery is more than likely dead. See surface charge note below:
Batteries surface charge.

What the heck is a surface charge?
When testing wet cell auto batteries, some will show a 12.xx Volt result, but as soon as a 100-150 amp load is applied, they drop straight down to 9.8V or lower. Classic example of a collapsed cell wall (internal short). This is why too many DIY and techs get stumped when they pull out a meter and say "It shows 12.xxV so it must be good”. NOPE, batteries are tested for voltage holds and AMP draw capacity as well as the ability to recover and recharge over and over again. The challenge is for the average DIY to approx the load test with KEY OFF.

Solution: Set a volt meter to DC volts 0-25 scale or auto ranging if so equipped. Read and record voltage
Turn on everything in the car for 15 seconds:
Headlamps to high beam
Heater blower motor to high w/ A/C on
Seat Heaters
Rear Defroster (and rear seat blower if so equipped)
Interior lights
Radio
Fog lamps
Cigar lighter
etc, etc, etc

Read voltage after testing. You should see a drop off of .5-1.5Volts during the test and a slow rise back to 12.5V+ on a completely healthy and fully charged battery in 30sec to 1 min.
A battery that is DEAD, will show 9.8V or less and never recover until charged.

Tips: Pull off all the grounds and positive points in the trunk area, clean and reassemble.
Do a volt drop test on each cable from battery +/- post to each connector.
Volt Drop Testing (Image below) will show you issues with grounds and wiring problems. Read the text and test a few spots to determine if your car has clean connections.
https://www.engine-light-help.com/voltage-drop.html

Are you having other electrical issues? Alternative issues: Ign Key switch failure, wiring junction box rusted (see water leaks under passenger seat(E39), Water standing in trunk under the battery (E53) and the normal wiring broken connectors, grounds), etc....
Your results of:
Idle (after using jump pack to start then disconnecting it)
Battery - 11.5v and decreasing over time

Tells me that there is either one dead battery or a broken wire loose connection, or the positive terminal end on your battery cable has been fired off see image below.

Next: Clean and wipe off all the positive connectors you removed when doing the OFH project under the hood.
Your reading when running show the alternator is working as designed as the voltage jumps up to 14.0+ attempting to recharge the battery.

Note: Batteries with a collapsed cell read 12.3V but drop like a rock when loaded. You can recharge over and over again as still get what looks like a good battery only to fail any load test (Must be 1/2 cold cranking amps rating). Many of these batteries will get HOT when recharging so owner beware as an exploded battery is not something to take lightly. The mess will eat your car alive.
Attached Images
   
__________________

2005 X5 4.8IS
The Blue ones are always FASTER....

Current Garage:
2005 X5 4.8is
2002 M5 TiSilver
2003 525iT
1998 528i
Former Garage Stable Highlights
2004 325XiT Sport
1973 De Tomaso Pantera, L Model
1970 Dodge Challenger T/A 4 sp Alpine White
1970 Dodge Challenger T/A 4 sp GoManGo Green
1971 Dart Sport, “Dart Light” package
1969 Road Runner 383
1968 Ply Barracuda 340S FB Sea-foam Green

Last edited by StephenVA; 10-08-2020 at 10:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-09-2020, 04:54 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7
Mistermorgan is on a distinguished road
Thanks again for this. I’ve tried with yet another, new, fully charged battery. I’m now fairly convinced the BST is the culprit

I took ole of the batteries to the front and using jumper leads connected to the jump points. Started no problem.

I used my jumper pack at the front and started no problem

When I used either from the trunk there’s a 2v voltage drop off from front to back and no start.

Is there a proven way to test the BST to be certain the drop off isn’t happening somewhere else between the BST and alternator/starter?

I can’t thank you enough for continuing to help with this Stephen
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-09-2020, 05:16 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 7
Mistermorgan is on a distinguished road
Awwww man. Stop the press I’m a bonehead. The voltage drop was literally at the jump terminal which wasn’t right or very clean

I am amazed I didn’t notice the
Is when jumping it but took both sides of the jumper post out, cleaned them up, reconnected and problem solved.

I’m going to sit in the corner and think about what I’ve done - sorry to have been a time suck
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
alternator problems, e53 charging

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:42 PM.
vBulletin, Copyright 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
© 2017 Xoutpost.com. All rights reserved. Xoutpost.com is a private enthusiast site not associated with BMW AG.
The BMW name, marks, M stripe logo, and Roundel logo as well as X3, X5 and X6 designations used in the pages of this Web Site are the property of BMW AG.
This web site is not sponsored or affiliated in any way with BMW AG or any of its subsidiaries.