Winter vs Summer tyres on X-drive

[nick325xit 5spd]

Originally Posted by bcredliner

Looks like I should have been more clear. There was no intention of even implying the results of the controlled test are applicable to an X5. It was purely to post the difference between anecdotal opinions and a professional test.

What adjustments would you make if the tire you choose results in too much understeer?

If I had a Camaro I wouldn't go to a X5 forum to ask about the best tire for a Camaro. And I pay little attention to what tire works best on a Camaro when my interest is solely getting input on the best tire for an X5 on this forum.

You are radically over-indexing for differences between cars. If you look at conepacking, in the street tire classes where cars have lots of choices, the competitive people all end up on a very small set of tires (or even the same tire) on very different vehicles.

Yeah, if you have a set of fairly similar tires, direct experience is going to help differentiate. But that's at a point when you're talking subtle differences.

The fact is that most people haven't even used enough different sets of tires to have a valid opinion on whether a tire is good or bad. At best, they can say that the tire meets their expectations. But what is their expectation reference? Do they even know what understeer is? If they know what understeer is, how much of that understeer is caused by their driving style?

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd

You are radically over-indexing for differences between cars. If you look at conepacking, in the street tire classes where cars have lots of choices, the competitive people all end up on a very small set of tires (or even the same tire) on very different vehicles.

Yeah, if you have a set of fairly similar tires, direct experience is going to help differentiate. But that's at a point when you're talking subtle differences.

The fact is that most people haven't even used enough different sets of tires to have a valid opinion on whether a tire is good or bad. At best, they can say that the tire meets their expectations. But what is their expectation reference? Do they even know what understeer is? If they know what understeer is, how much of that understeer is caused by their driving style?

You didn't answer my question. What would you do if the tires you have chosen cause too much understeer?

I don't view this as splitting hairs, far from it. I see it as information to help make an informed decision rather than just do what others do not knowing if your results will be the same.

I don't think it matters if they know what understeer is or not. If their driving causes understeer and the tires magnify understeer they may not know why but they will know they didn't like going into the ditch. A stock X5 is designed to understeer. I would never want a tire that would add to understeer.

We aren't discussing racing. That is entirely a different breed of cat and we would be talking about summer or race tires only. This discussion is about winter tires. If you are a serious racer you are aware of the sensitivity of width, size of tire, tire pressure, track conditions, alignment, weight distribution etc. have on handling. And likely the first place you would go to get the best tire input, if needed, would be to someone that does very well and has the same or very similar car, setup and similar HP/TQ.

[nick325xit 5spd]

Originally Posted by bcredliner

You didn't answer my question. What would you do if the tires you have chosen cause too much understeer?

I would try altering my driving (first), adjusting the suspension/alignment (second), and replacing the tire (third).

I don't view this as splitting hairs, far from it. I see it as information to help make an informed decision rather than just do what others do not knowing if your results will be the same.

OK

I don't think it matters if they know what understeer is or not. If their driving causes understeer and the tires magnify understeer they may not know why but they will know they didn't like going into the ditch. A stock X5 is designed to understeer. I would never want a tire that would add to understeer.

And one of the biggest lessons that I've learned over the years is that most understeer is driver induced. Most people who talk about understeer issues have a bigger problem between the seat and the steering wheel than they do with the car.

You have to be *very* careful when you make judgements based on declarations of understeer that the person knows why the understeer is happening. A stock E46 M3 is a great example of this. Drive it one way, it's an absolute understeering pig. Drive it another way, it's loose as hell.

We aren't discussing racing. That is entirely a different breed of cat and we would be talking about summer or race tires only. This discussion is about winter tires.

Uh, you know that people do competitive events on snow and ice, right?

If you are a serious racer you are aware of the sensitivity of width, size of tire, tire pressure, track conditions, alignment, weight distribution etc. have on handling.

The last thing that I would claim is to be a serious racer. I have spent a fair bit of time with them, though.

You forgot to include a few major factors, though. Tire age, heat cycles, tread depth, driving style for example. And yes, of course, drive type does impact handling. Hell, diff configuration has a big impact on handling. And there's lots more beyond that.

And likely the first place you would go to get the best tire input, if needed, would be to someone that does very well and has the same or very similar car, setup and similar HP/TQ.

Generally speaking, in competition, tire selection is very easy. You're either required to use a specific tire, or the best tire is fairly obvious.

And if the tire choice is not obvious, you go to the the successful driver who has the money to try them all and find out what they did. And in those cases, they will almost certainly have a very different car from what you've got.

[bcredliner]

Veeeeery interesting.

[QUOTE=nick325xit 5spd;1213709]I would try altering my driving (first), adjusting the suspension/alignment (second), and replacing the tire (third).
I wouldn't put them in that order but at least you agree a tire can cause understeering to the point that replacing the tire is necessary.


OK



And one of the biggest lessons that I've learned over the years is that most understeer is driver induced. Most people who talk about understeer issues have a bigger problem between the seat and the steering wheel than they do with the car

You have to be *very* careful when you make judgements based on declarations of understeer that the person knows why the understeer is happening. A stock E46 M3 is a great example of this. Drive it one way, it's an absolute understeering pig. Drive it another way, it's loose as hell.
We aren't discussing driving capability or explaining how a driver is causing understeer. There have been multiple reviews of E53s that used professional drivers that have said the natural tendency of the X5 is to understeer. It's far from making a declaration.

Uh, you know that people do competitive events on snow and ice, right?
Cheap shot, but yes, I do know that but for the life of me I can't relate to creating a 70MPH wind to blow in my face when there is already a 35 mph wind blowing in my face and it is 20 degrees and dropping.


The last thing that I would claim is to be a serious racer. I have spent a fair bit of time with them, though.


You forgot to include a few major factors, though. Tire age, heat cycles, tread depth, driving style for example. And yes, of course, drive type does impact handling. Hell, diff configuration has a big impact on handling. And there's lots more beyond that.
I didn't forget. Key word in my list was it ended with etc.



Generally speaking, in competition, tire selection is very easy. You're either required to use a specific tire, or the best tire is fairly obvious. General speaking means what you say next is not 100% of the time.

And if the tire choice is not obvious, you go to the the successful driver who has the money to try them all and find out what they did. And in those cases, they will almost certainly have a very different car from what you've got. And they would likely include the caveat that's what works on my car. There is no guarantee you will have the same results.

This is my last response. This is fruitless and has gone on too long. I see no indication you feel an apples to apple discussion has any merit and it serves no purpose to make this a dick dance. Based on your response there may be an exception.