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  #11  
Old 11-22-2021, 06:12 PM
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FYI I would be open to the idea that a fantastic all.season might have 2/3 to half the grip on an oily surface but without sipes they just can't grip on oil+wet (same as light layer of ice on asphalt)


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  #12  
Old 11-22-2021, 07:23 PM
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tires weren't so good in the past as now

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
Chicago roads are covered in oil. They are crazy slippery when it first rains after a dry patch....
I've been driving since 1965, when cars/trucks still used downdraft tubes to evacuate crankcase fumes. ALL roads were much oilier then than now, and the tires were not nearly as good. First rains were conducive to slip & slide action on the roads, and hard rains also produced another effect...aquaplaning.

After using the nearly bald four-year old tires that my '56 Chevy 210 had when I inherited/bought for cash (my recently-deceased aunt wanted me to have it, but my mother sold it to me and gave the proceeds to my siblings), I had to wait awhile to get new tires...Firestone Wide Ovals (new in '67).

On my first nighttime drive after installation, I was on a downhill on-ramp and aquaplaned into the side ditch, just after a heavy downpour started. Sure, I had dealt with slippery roads before, and even some ice, but the new wider tires were totally unforgiving of water underneath. I was very happy when they wore out in <5000 miles, so I could get new $10 blackwalls from a dept.store sale (better grip). Another difference from then 'til now...My wipers(vacuum driven) stopped completely, accelerating on the ramp; I never saw the standing water that I aquaplaned thru.

Nowadays, there's less oil on the roads, tires are better, wipers are electric, and I've got many years of driving experience. I use all-season tires on our DD's and X5, or all-terrains on my large pickup truck, and still slide after our N.Texas ice storms. Never contemplated two sets of tires, since summer temperatures last for extra months, and ice storms may or may not come at all (snow is truly rare). 32nd parallel weather. And, being retired, I choose not to drive on ice anymore, either.
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Last edited by workingonit; 11-22-2021 at 07:34 PM.
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  #13  
Old 11-22-2021, 08:42 PM
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I had an Isuzu pickup in a total sideways drift at about 75 mph on I-45 along the western side of downtown Houston a number of years ago when a little rain fell on an oil-slicked freeway. It was literally like hitting black ice.

While there's no question snow tires are vastly better on snow/ice (studded even better!), I agree with nick... that there is a huge range of effectiveness when it comes to A/S tires. Some are worthless like summer tires and others are.... not terrible. Living in CO on the front range, we see about 355 days of dry pavement and 10 days of snow each year. I can't justify changing to winter tires, but I do choose my A/S tires with a nod toward snow performance. I have the Discount Tire version of the DWS on my wife's car and they're.... okayish in snow. Reading reviews, the genuine DWS is better.

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  #14  
Old 11-22-2021, 10:59 PM
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Wife's 50i will shred the winter tires come spring so I'll be looking into some high quality a/s model. I happen to have two decent rim sets so I'll put the winter tires on one set and will work on finding some nice summer tires just so I can get the winter tires to last.

For my 3.0i, which I can't break traction full throttle from a stop when it's wet.
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Old 11-22-2021, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
Wife's 50i will shred the winter tires come spring so I'll be looking into some high quality a/s model. I happen to have two decent rim sets so I'll put the winter tires on one set and will work on finding some nice summer tires just so I can get the winter tires to last.

For my 3.0i, which I can't break traction full throttle from a stop when it's wet.
That's because of the weight from all those tools you keep in there
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  #16  
Old 11-22-2021, 11:56 PM
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Solid comeback.

I do run 7 psi more in back to compensate for the tools.

I'm pretty sure it helps with snow traction.

In spite of the tools I still can take offramps at close to 1g surprising many sporty cars.
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  #17  
Old 11-24-2021, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
Chicago roads are covered in oil. They are crazy slippery when it first rains after a dry patch.

I'll look up the current tires on wires car when I get a chance I just remembered looking up a review on tirerack.com and they were decently reviewed but in all season class.

The previous car when we bought had Walmart $75 tires. They were total trash.

Wife's current car is 50i. That's more critical to the relative loss of grip but the rear tires wear twice as fast as the front. They did ok six months ago only breaking traction full throttle shifts. When the ambient dropped and the tires got stiff they spin quite easily (again on her 50i).

I'm confident that won't be an issue when the snows are installed next week and I plan to take some before and after video to showcase the difference in grip.
My experience with winter tires is that it's drift city for me on a 2WD car. You have to have actual ice/snow on the ground to end up with more traction, unless the temperatures are cold. I will grant that it's cold (my definition is below 20 degrees) a heck of a lot more at your latitude than mine. At quasi normal temperatures wet or dry, I have not found any circumstance in which winter tires are better than a good all season.

And if you think Chicago roads are oily, try LA roads.

I can't live with winter tires year round. They are too loud, have too little grip, are too gooshy, and they struggle to survive my driving during the winter, much less when it's warm. We currently have one set for the 325iX, and that's honestly more snow tires than we actually need given the weather here.

Now, it's worth noting that I'm comparing only tires that I'd regard as good tires in their respective categories. I don't use crap tires. There are crap winter tires, a LOT of crap all season tires, and crap summer tires. If they're crap, I'll replace them.
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Old 11-24-2021, 12:34 PM
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I have to mention I also only use *phenomenal* winter tires. Solid point on crap tires and I do take turns vigorously and when it's warmer than 60-70 I can definitely feel the squishy factor but half the year the tires are in their peak zone of under 50.

I noticed that with wife's 50i the problem of wheel sleep kicked in abruptly when ambient got below 50F.
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  #19  
Old 11-25-2021, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick325xit 5spd View Post
My experience with winter tires is that it's drift city for me on a 2WD car. You have to have actual ice/snow on the ground to end up with more traction, unless the temperatures are cold. I will grant that it's cold (my definition is below 20 degrees) a heck of a lot more at your latitude than mine. At quasi normal temperatures wet or dry, I have not found any circumstance in which winter tires are better than a good all season.

And if you think Chicago roads are oily, try LA roads.

I can't live with winter tires year round. They are too loud, have too little grip, are too gooshy, and they struggle to survive my driving during the winter, much less when it's warm. We currently have one set for the 325iX, and that's honestly more snow tires than we actually need given the weather here.

There are not many good tests of winter tires vs all seasons in non-snowy conditions, but here is a good one that demonstrates that studless winter tires are often much better than all-seasons in wet conditions, as long as it is not super hot:
https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...vs-summer.html


It's not close either, the studless tire significantly outpaces the all-season in the dry. And in this test they use three tires of similar quality from the same manufacturer. For this reason I use both true summer tires and studless tires on my family car, though I have struggled to find a good summer tire for my X.



I have argued with Andrew on this one before too, and I just can't believe that studless tires are generally better in the hot summer than all seasons. The data I have been able to find, and the science doesn't back that up. (I am a mechanical engineer and studied vehicle dynamics in college for several years. I can interpret a Milliken Moment Diagram or tire testing data, but never worked in the field.)



I do find it hard to believe that chicago is such a different place than everywhere else in the country and somehow studless tires are good on oil slicks. However, I recognize that Andrew has had the experiences that he has had. My only concrete conclusion is that there are many bad tires out there, and many bad conclusions have probably been drawn because of them.
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  #20  
Old 11-25-2021, 12:40 AM
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The principle that makes ice slippery is nearly identical to what makes oily roads slippery.

Driving my Z28 with 255/55/16 fantastic summer tires felt like driving on wet leaves in Chicago.

Driving on sp wintersport 3d is amazing on almost any surface.

I'm sure they get gooey over 70-80F and I take special effort to drive less when it's over 80f out.

That said the grip gets better down below 50 and starts to blow away the competition when it's below 20F. I drive plenty right at freezing and the grip is stunning on frost covered roads.

I parked in a puddle once to come out with the tires Frozen in 3" of ice. Drove right out without spinning the tires.

I'm planning to take a couple before and after videos with wife's 50i when I get the winters on.

My car can't break traction with the SPs on unless it's actually snow or ice. I can launch full throttle on snow and it squirms a bit but it's quite remarkable the level of acceleration.

Anyhow back to laws of physics.

Sipes give you grip when there is a thin film on the road. That film can be water oil or frost on concrete.

I happen to live in a "Goldilocks" latitude where I can take advantage of my unique situation.

I have driven on extremely good summer tires and on really crappy all season tires.

I'm sure I could given enough effort find some decent "all season" tires that would get me though winter but I did get horribly horribly stuck with decent "all season" tires in some very deep snow where I wouldn't have even been concerned with the SP.

(I have gone cross country with 7" of fresh wet snow as another example of SP winter sport capability). Zero chance I wouldn't have been stuck in the back yard had I tried that with all season tires.
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