Home Forums Articles How To's FAQ Register
Go Back   Xoutpost.com > BMW SAV Forums > X5 (E53) Forum
Arnott
User Name
Password
Member List Premier Membership Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Xoutpost server transfer and maintenance is occurring....
Xoutpost is currently undergoing a planned server migration.... stay tuned for new developments.... sincerely, the management


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #161  
Old 01-27-2013, 03:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 164
Nick P is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by myzhik86 View Post
So I dont think this problem will ever go away unless I move somewhere where it doesnt get below freezing temperature.
I have learned that if you drive gently and try to stay below 2k rpms the car will drive fine.
I drove like this after the most recent time the ccv froze. The x5 ran fine no smoke or anything.
This morning i thouhgt i would test my theory so I bump the gas twice so the rpms would go above 2k quickly... sure enough the x5 began to smoke like crazy!! previous times my wife was driving it so i didnt experience the the problem.

This time I was driving, the car was stallling and there was smoke behind me for a 1/4 mile. Not kidding! I couldnt see the cars behind me.

Im guessing the oil is entering the intake and flooding one or more of the cylinders.

Is this a possibility? Im not familiar with the setup. Just wondering if there is a way for a gasket to blow and allow oil to enter the cylinders....?

I just bought this recently, from a single owner who owned it from brand new with 130k. Its in really nice shape. But i dont think my driving style is a good
fit for the car as i dont do long trips just short ones.
In case of M54, the oil gets in to intake via dipstick tube (there's some branch in to the crank ventilation system from a dipstick) - you can bore some holes at the bottom of the dipstick tube to prevent it while the engine's getting warm. But there's a danger that the dipstick should have a connection to the atmoshpere and so the air will also get in after the usual CCV system will work properly - so some oil foam will develope from the oil film covering the bottom of the dip stick tube, but some people report it works. Still I wouldn't do this on my car due to the possible foam developement, which is also very dangerous.
Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links

  #162  
Old 01-27-2013, 04:03 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick P View Post
The problem has nothing to do with the crankcase ventilation design - it's all the excess of water in the oil due to the wearout of piston rings.

There's nothing to do about it exept for oil catch tank - but it's not a solution of the problem, it's just to send some amount of oil in to the tank to keep the engine save. The solution against frozen CCV is a engine rebuild or a new engine.

I never had such a problem in my 4.6is in 6 years of ownership, using it even at -30°C. The condensate/oil sludge is an evidence for not getting the engine warm as it should be - and there's no other explanation for that.
I completely agree with the root cause being not getting the engine hot enough, and holding it there long enough, to burn off the condensation.

I don't understand your comment about the piston rings, can you explain?
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 01-27-2013, 04:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 164
Nick P is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL View Post
I completely agree with the root cause being not getting the engine hot enough, and holding it there long enough, to burn off the condensation.

I don't understand your comment about the piston rings, can you explain?
The piston rings are wearing out because of lack of lube especially, when the oil's cold. The higher the oil pressure (rpms), the higher the possibility the oil film on cylinder walls will tear and that results in wearing out of piston rings and skratches on cylinder walls.

The engine's alsways producing some big amounts of water because of combustion - no matter whether the engine's cold or warm.

The oil molecules are like 10-15 times bigger and heavier, than water molecules - so the first moleculs will penetrate into crank case will be the water molecules for sure.

So even there's no oil loses and dark smoke from the exhaust, the combustion water will get in to the crank case through the piston rings earlier.

So if you see some water/oil sludge on your oil cap - the engine wasn't warmed up properly and/or was used for short trips only.
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 01-27-2013, 05:42 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick P View Post
The piston rings are wearing out because of lack of lube especially, when the oil's cold. The higher the oil pressure (rpms), the higher the possibility the oil film on cylinder walls will tear and that results in wearing out of piston rings and scratches on cylinder walls.

The engine's always producing some big amounts of water because of combustion - no matter whether the engine's cold or warm.

The oil molecules are like 10-15 times bigger and heavier, than water molecules - so the first molecules will penetrate into crank case will be the water molecules for sure.

So even there's no oil loses and dark smoke from the exhaust, the combustion water will get in to the crank case through the piston rings earlier.

So if you see some water/oil sludge on your oil cap - the engine wasn't warmed up properly and/or was used for short trips only.
I agree that doing only short trips will not burn off the condensation. But condensation doesn't relate to piston rings, it relates to heating and cooling cycles, which produce condensation. Condensation is normal, but it burns off if the engine gets hot. If the engine and oil don't get hot, it emulsifies, and forms the paste.

Earlier you said the problem with the CCV was due to the piston rings, which I couldn't understand. Now you have said the rings wear as a consequence of moisture in the oil. Those are two different things. It is either cause or effect.

I am not sure if you mean compression rings or oil control rings. I have had condensate form due to short trips, with no oil consumption. If the rings were wearing out, the first signs would be low or variable compression, or higher oil consumption. Absent those symptoms, I think the piston rings are fine.

If you are saying that moisture in the combustion chamber doesn't go out the exhaust, but instead hangs around and permeates the block and migrates to the oil sump, then I don't agree. If water could permeate the block under those circumstances, then the cooling system would continually siphon into the sump. Obviously it doesn't. The combustion chamber is hot. It is the moisture in the crankcase that is a problem (and particularly under the valve cover), not in the combustion chamber.
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 01-27-2013, 06:09 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 164
Nick P is on a distinguished road
The combustion water doesn't hang around it penetrates through both piston rings in to the crank case during the expansion phase like all other sump gases causing the pressure in crank case.

The weraing out piston rings causes penetration of combustion water, before you can discover any standard symptoms of bad piston rings, like you described.
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 01-27-2013, 08:02 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
OK, I get what you are saying. I would agree that piston rings can have blow-by, which contains moisture. But since the moisture under the valve cover happens on brand new engines, irrespective of the condition of the piston rings, I don't think it is due to ring wear.

The problem under discussion is moisture under the valve cover. This moisture is widely accepted to be condensation, on the inside of the upper surface of the engine, due to repeated heating and cooling cycles. Those heating and cooling cycles are starting the car every day or so, and then parking it overnight in a cool environment.
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue

Last edited by JCL; 01-27-2013 at 08:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 01-28-2013, 09:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 164
Nick P is on a distinguished road
The combustion water builds an emulsion with oil which gets under the valve cover vie regular oil circulation.

Maybe I still don't get you but what's the source of moisture in oil exept for the combustion, because condensation isn't a source, it's just a physical process. And normally theres no as much moisture in the crank case just because of atmospheric moisture.
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 01-28-2013, 09:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 164
Nick P is on a distinguished road
The combustion water builds an emulsion with oil which gets under the valve cover via regular oil circulation.

Maybe I still don't get you but what's the source of moisture in oil exept for the combustion, because condensation isn't a source, it's just a physical process. And normally theres no as much moisture in the crank case just because of atmospheric moisture.
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 01-28-2013, 04:44 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
I agree that blow-by is one source of moisture. Atmospheric moisture is a second source. Intake air. Would be interesting to know the % contribution of each.
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 01-28-2013, 06:55 PM
davintosh's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 395
davintosh is on a distinguished road
One thing that has crossed my mind several times is whether some kind of desiccant would work to pull the moisture out. I've seen desiccant breathers used on industrial machinery before, but have never heard of them being used on automobile engines. Something like that would really make a lot of sense in these machines. It probably wouldn't have been a cheap retrofit, but I wonder how much expense went into the warranty service that was done on these cars over the years, and how much of that cost could've been avoided.

Desiccant Breather Filters Maximize Equipment Life

I know the mantra for some is that these cars are designed to be driven at operating temperature for a certain period of time to burn off the condensation, but the reality is that for many of us, that just doesn't happen. Try to tell my wife that she has drive an extra 20 miles to drive to work, which is less than a mile away... (she usually walks, but not when there's freezing rain to deal with, like the last few days.) Plus, when we live in the central part of a city where you can drive from one edge to another in 15 minutes, short trips are the rule, not the exception.
__________________
2001 X5 Sport 3.0/5-speed
1998 318ti/5-speed
1988 735i/5-speed
1984 528e/5-speed (soon to be M20B25-powered 525i!)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:55 AM.
vBulletin, Copyright 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
© 2017 Xoutpost.com. All rights reserved. Xoutpost.com is a private enthusiast site not associated with BMW AG.
The BMW name, marks, M stripe logo, and Roundel logo as well as X3, X5 and X6 designations used in the pages of this Web Site are the property of BMW AG.
This web site is not sponsored or affiliated in any way with BMW AG or any of its subsidiaries.