Transmission Reliability

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by JCL

I buy BMWs new because they aren't expensive for what I get. If BMW spent more money making the transmission good enough to last 500,000 miles, I wouldn't buy the cars in the first place because they would be too expensive. They have an appropriate level of durability for the price point.

We are picking on BMW a fair bit in this thread, but they aren't even BMW transmissions. They are built by ZF and GM, two companies that makes some of the best automatic transmissions in the world. Sure, BMWs will be obsolete in a few years, same as most other brands. That is the price we pay for the constant consumer demands for more power, lower emissions, more electronic options, more technology, and so on.

I respect your opinion, and think you make good points regarding the advanced technology in today's cars causing much of the problems. However, I can't go with your logic regarding BMW's price-point justifying transmissions that only last 50-100k miles without a significant number needing replacement. Lexus LX's and GX's cost just as much as X5's, and their transmissions are quite superior. BMW's should be too. The fluid may indeed be lifetime and not be the cause of the failure's, but that does not excuse BMW for not doing a better job covering the other failures that basically demand a person replace the whole transmission before 150k miles. That's absurd. Moreover, the fact BMW doesn't make the transmission in no way excuses them. They still put the transmission in, and put their name on the vehicle (Toyota, as I understand it, doesn't make the throttle part that is the reason behind their recall either, but they aren't ducking their responsibility). Anyway, if we were just talking valve cover gaskets or thrust rod bushings, that'd be no big deal, but the transmission should be much more durable on a $60K+ SAV than they are on the BMW X5. And if they will not consistently last up to 150k miles, BMW should either demand the supplier improve their product, or cover at least half of the costs of a new transmission when ANY X5 transmission fails under normal use before 150k miles ...


AND Quicksilver: I agree that posting on here will not pressure BMW to change their policy regarding the transmission. This board is just a steam-release valve that can help those with trouble to both find solutions, and comfort. The formation of a website and Twitter account could ratchet up the pressure on BMW, but I think the best avenue is the legal one in which enough signatures are signed to an official complaint that BMW realizes they had better invest more in their "goodwill," and less in their spin/excuses when it comes to the transmission issues ...

[JCL]

Originally Posted by willgabriel

I respect your opinion, and think you make good points regarding the advanced technology in today's cars causing much of the problems. However, I can't go with your logic regarding BMW's price-point justifying transmissions that only last 50-100k miles without a significant number needing replacement. .....

Earlier on in this thread you suggested that any reasonable person should expect BMW transmissions to go longer than 150,000 miles. I am not sure why you picked that number, since it is well over the warranty that BMW offers, but in any case you are now suggesting that BMW transmissions only last 50-100 k miles. There are a lot of X5 owners with more miles than that on their original transmissions that would disagree with your conclusion that 50-100 k is the life of a BMW transmission.

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by JCL

Earlier on in this thread you suggested that any reasonable person should expect BMW transmissions to go longer than 150,000 miles. I am not sure why you picked that number, since it is well over the warranty that BMW offers, but in any case you are now suggesting that BMW transmissions only last 50-100 k miles. There are a lot of X5 owners with more miles than that on their original transmissions that would disagree with your conclusion that 50-100 k is the life of a BMW transmission.

Actually, I said a reasonable person should expect a BMW transmission to last at least 150k miles before failing especially considering BMW has said they need no special maintenance (no fluid changes, etc). Otherwise, indeed many people never have a problem with their X5 transmission, but the one's who do have problems seem to have them anywhere between 30-100k miles. This observation does not invalidate the first suggestion. In fact, if BMW would extend their warranty coverage (or at least partial coverage) for the problematic transmissions to 150k miles, that would pass the reasonable person test, IMO.

[m5james]

At least 150k? That's definately a stretch, and I'm sure there are more than 20 people who will completely disagree w/ your opinion. The fact that you take BMW's suggestion as gospel is almost laughable since that's probably the worst thing they ever did, and they've also stopped suggesting that.

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by m5james

At least 150k? That's definately a stretch, and I'm sure there are more than 20 people who will completely disagree w/ your opinion. The fact that you take BMW's suggestion as gospel is almost laughable since that's probably the worst thing they ever did, and they've also stopped suggesting that.

That in NO way removes their responsibility/accountability for the years in which they CLEARLY stated the transmission was "maintenance-free" for the lifetime of the transmission. And with companies like Toyota now facing class action suits for transmissions on their 2001 and newer RAV-4's because of similar issues not addressed properly, the ONLY think that is laughable is some people's blind love for BMW that doesn't hold their feet to the fire for using a transmission on a $60k+ SAV that won't consistently last 150k miles. BMW are the experts. If their advice/rec's prove harmful or wrong, the consumer (the novices relying on the experts) have recourse in expecting BMW to make right what they made wrong.

[Quicksilver]

Why not write BMWNA regarding this issue and get back to us with
their answer. I suspect if they are reasonable people perhaps they
will agree with you. Either way I believe there are some of us that
would be interested in their written response to you concerns......

One suggestion. Please express your concerns the same way you
posted in this thread. Your position as you laid it out so far
doesn't seem to have a lot of support so I would be interested
to see how they respond.

Originally Posted by willgabriel

Actually, I said a reasonable person should expect a BMW transmission to last at least 150k miles before failing especially considering BMW has said they need no special maintenance (no fluid changes, etc). Otherwise, indeed many people never have a problem with their X5 transmission, but the one's who do have problems seem to have them anywhere between 30-100k miles. This observation does not invalidate the first suggestion. In fact, if BMW would extend their warranty coverage (or at least partial coverage) for the problematic transmissions to 150k miles, that would pass the reasonable person test, IMO.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by willgabriel

That in NO way removes their responsibility/accountability for the years in which they CLEARLY stated the transmission was "maintenance-free" for the lifetime of the transmission. And with companies like Toyota now facing class action suits for transmissions on their 2001 and newer RAV-4's because of similar issues not addressed properly, the ONLY think that is laughable is some people's blind love for BMW that doesn't hold their feet to the fire for using a transmission on a $60k+ SAV that won't consistently last 150k miles. BMW are the experts. If their advice/rec's prove harmful or wrong, the consumer (the novices relying on the experts) have recourse in expecting BMW to make right what they made wrong.

Exactly what accountability are you speaking of here? BMW warranted their vehicles (and the automatic transmissions) for 50,000 miles. They offered buyers in the US an insurance policy good up to 100,000 miles (extended warranty) for those that wanted to buy it.

Do you have any examples of transmissions failing prior to 50,000 miles that BMW did not stand behind in terms of their warranty obligations? How about examples of people who had BMW extended warranty and were denied coverage prior to 100,000 miles?

If you want to focus on the fluid change recommendations, then it would help if you provided data on transmission failures caused by not changing the transmission fluid.

As for changing the fluid recommendations, wasn't that coincident with changing the transmission design? BMW never retracted or changed their fluid change recommendations to my knowledge, although I certainly could be wrong. What they did was move to newer components, with less data, and reduced the maintenance interval at the same time.

I looked up your Toyota class action example. Seems to be an ECM problem, not a transmission problem. The person that filed the lawsuit stated that their Toyota transmission failed 6000 miles after the warranty expired at 100,000 miles, and that although Toyota offered them a free transmission when it failed again (faulty reman transmission) they turned it down and sued on principle. They didn't just sue for their costs, they want to get on the 'lets screw the automakers' bandwagon and so made it a class action suit. That just seems like shameful behavioiur.

You have suggested several times that BMW should give you a free 150,000 mile warranty that you didn't pay for, but are somehow entitled to. That seems to be the real issue.

[Black5]

My X5 transmission failed at 75,000 Km , (approx 50,000miles). For at least 5,000K's prior to this it was exhibiting symptoms such as harsh shifting, delays shifting into reverse and general poor shift quality which the dealer insisted was NORMAL.

I kept complaining, (weekly, sometimes daily) and had to provide written threats of legal action and actually started proceedings through our consumer complaints process before they agreed to do anything.
This, even after it went into TRANS FAILSAFE twice within the period of a week during the last week of the warranty.

Eventually rebuilt 2 weeks outside warranty period ended after I involved my solicitors.

I understand that this may not be a typical dealer response, but when a car exhibits such obvious symptoms, dealers running blindly to the BMW "Standard response book" to tell unsuspecting owners everything is normal is just plain wrong. It shouldn't have to be so hard.

I'm lucky enough that I'm a persistant bastard and I stuck to my guns and kept insisting that they were wrong, whereas someone else who didn't recognise the symptoms (and I'm certainly no expert!) could have been stuck with the $7K repair bill.

[willgabriel]

Originally Posted by JCL

Exactly what accountability are you speaking of here? BMW warranted their vehicles (and the automatic transmissions) for 50,000 miles. They offered buyers in the US an insurance policy good up to 100,000 miles (extended warranty) for those that wanted to buy it.

Do you have any examples of transmissions failing prior to 50,000 miles that BMW did not stand behind in terms of their warranty obligations? How about examples of people who had BMW extended warranty and were denied coverage prior to 100,000 miles?

If you want to focus on the fluid change recommendations, then it would help if you provided data on transmission failures caused by not changing the transmission fluid.

As for changing the fluid recommendations, wasn't that coincident with changing the transmission design? BMW never retracted or changed their fluid change recommendations to my knowledge, although I certainly could be wrong. What they did was move to newer components, with less data, and reduced the maintenance interval at the same time.

I looked up your Toyota class action example. Seems to be an ECM problem, not a transmission problem. The person that filed the lawsuit stated that their Toyota transmission failed 6000 miles after the warranty expired at 100,000 miles, and that although Toyota offered them a free transmission when it failed again (faulty reman transmission) they turned it down and sued on principle. They didn't just sue for their costs, they want to get on the 'lets screw the automakers' bandwagon and so made it a class action suit. That just seems like shameful behavioiur.

You have suggested several times that BMW should give you a free 150,000 mile warranty that you didn't pay for, but are somehow entitled to. That seems to be the real issue.

No, my transmission has not failed, so I would be getting nothing. The fact I am arguing is BMW transmission components fail before the "lifetime" a reasonable person would expect to get from a transmission on a $60k+ vehicle ... (150k miles would seem reasonable) and some if not all of the blame should be acknowledged and embraced by BMW especially considering the fact that through the 2007 model (?), they claimed the transmission needed no maintenance. It's a quite simple and sound basis for a formal legal complaint, and is only made complex by those who a. would lose something if BMW was made to pay for all or some of the repair of any "maintenance-free" transmission on any X5 that failed before 150k miles, or b. those who are blinded by a BMW devotion.


Ps- BLACK 5's post: EXACTLY!!! Exhibit A. BMW's cost/benefit ethos/ethic has sacrificed its customers in this area for far too long. The Toyota case I cited was merely to show that legal action is often the only thing that will get some of these companies to do the right thing, and assume responsibility for their mistakes. Again, this is simple accountability; to not see or actually defend BMW truly reveals that you are in category a. or b.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by willgabriel

The fact I am arguing is BMW transmission components fail before the "lifetime" a reasonable person would expect to get from a transmission on a $60k+ vehicle ... (150k miles would seem reasonable) and some if not all of the blame should be acknowledged and embraced by BMW especially considering the fact that through the 2007 model (?), they claimed the transmission needed no maintenance.

Your warranty statement may be different than mine, I am not sure what US law states about consumer's expectations for component life up to triple the warranty period (50,000 miles). My warranty states that there are no implied warranties beyond what is covered by the warranty statement. That pretty much excludes nuisance law suits by owners wanting lifetime warranties.

I don't see the connection to the BMW fluid change recommendations in any way. If you can make a connection between not changing the fluid and the transmissions failing (during the warranty period) then I get it. Since we don't have any documented history on transmission failures that are due to the BMW fluid change recommendations, they are entirely irrelevant.

If a failure happens during the warranty period, I fully support the rights of the owner to claim against that warranty. Black 5 appears to have had a valid claim, and from what I have read above he should have received the benefit of the warranty he paid for. I am not advocating that he should receive a free warranty three times longer than the one he paid for, but I am glad to see that his dealer (who appears to be somewhat incompetent) finally dealt with it. Usually, documenting a problem before the expiry of the warranty is sufficient to be able to make a claim if you have a failure soon after the warranty expires. If a dealer is non-responsive, I would simply go to another dealer, assuming that is an option.

I am not sure what the point of your attacks on BMW enthusiasts are. It seems to be that if we agree with you fine, and if we don't we are either on the BMW payroll or blinded by some sort of fanboy mentality? Is that the full extent of your argument? How about if we have several decades of experience in dealer service management (non-BMW in my case), and we simply think your argument is entirely without merit?