My First BMW 2002 X5 4.4!!! Got Screwed!!!

[TowX]

Originally Posted by sunny5280

Your suggestions are not useful. This is not going to be an issue the dealer is obligated to cover. Verbal agreements / promises to a written contract are not enforceable, only what's contained within the written contract is.

All he can hope for is for the dealer to perform a goodwill repair. Something I believe to be highly unlikely as it appears they were upfront with him about the condition of the vehicle even going so far as to say they didn't want to bother inspecting it themselves. They may offer a few dollars back but I think even that is unlikely. The vehicle was sold "as-is" and, absent fraud or deception (and IMO, a salesman saying it may be a $300 sensor is not deception in my book), I don't see why so many people expect the dealer to fix this at their cost.

I respectfully disagree. If in fact the salesman represented the sensor as the cause of the problem, then there's a possibility that the dealer could be legally liable if that was an outright lie. I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on TV, but at one point in my career I spent a decade supporting the automobile business from the financial/ banking side. I'd seen numerous times where a simple letter or call from an attorney has opened doors. Used car dealers not so much so, but franchised new car dealers tend to be far more receptive to resolving issues. And if the salesman stated that the $300 part was all that was needed and that was a lie, he's an agent for the dealership and as such could void the as-is clause. The operative world in "could".

Again, without knowing the legal requirements in the OP's state, it's hard to say. But to not pursue legal counsel would be foolish. He could spend $200-300 for an attorney to listen to his case and perhaps make a call to the dealership. Better than eating a $5000 trans.

Just my two cents for whatever that's worth these days after taxes.

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by TowX

I respectfully disagree. If in fact the salesman represented the sensor as the cause of the problem, then there's a possibility that the dealer could be legally liable if that was an outright lie. I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on TV, but at one point in my career I spent a decade supporting the automobile business from the financial/ banking side. I'd seen numerous times where a simple letter or call from an attorney has opened doors. Used car dealers not so much so, but franchised new car dealers tend to be far more receptive to resolving issues. And if the salesman stated that the $300 part was all that was needed and that was a lie, he's an agent for the dealership and as such could void the as-is clause. The operative world in "could".

Again, without knowing the legal requirements in the OP's state, it's hard to say. But to not pursue legal counsel would be foolish. He could spend $200-300 for an attorney to listen to his case and perhaps make a call to the dealership. Better than eating a $5000 trans.

Just my two cents for whatever that's worth these days after taxes.

Here's how I see it:

• He bought the vehicle "as is". According to the OP he signed a document to this effect.
• During the entire buying process the SEL was illuminated. A clear sign there was a problem with the vehicle.
• Due to the high mileage the dealer did not perform an inspection of the vehicle and would not certify it. This was communicated to the buyer.
• Every car purchase I've made, and I've made five of them in the past two years, has included a specific statement in the paperwork with something to the effect that no oral respresentations or promises had been made and that everything must be in writing.

As for the salesman being an agent of the dealer (which is true) that's easily addressed by:

• He's a salesman and not a mechanic and therefore lacks the knowledge necessary to determine what the problem is.
• What he actually said. It's likely he said something to the effect of "It could be a $300 sensor" or "I've seen this before and it turned out to be a $300 sensor". Unless he said "It is a $300 sensor" and you can prove as much you're unlikely to make any headway with this argument.
• If he did say the SEL was illuminated because of a faulty sensor that statment appears to be correct. According to your post the stored code is an Output Speed Sensor. The salesman could merely have been communicating the diagnosis of the computer.

IMO involving an attorney would be a waste of money. Still, if he's willing to accept that loss, I see no downside to doing so after he has tried to work out something with the dealer directly.

[dragoncoach]

This thread is now 6 pages. Did the OP ever hear back from the selling dealer? I've read the threads and can't remember. I think we should give the dealer a chance to step up and offer some sort of remedy. If he doesn't, so be it as they are not obligated in any way. As for the check light, one should NEVER purchase a vehicle with any lights on in the dash, no matter what a salesman says! It's always BUYER BEWARE! Let's hope the dealer will step up and help.

[JCL]

The OP never said that he went back to the selling (Honda) dealer. He said he went to an independent to get a diagnosis.

I can't see any value in dealing with lawyers or the selling dealer. OP seems to know exactly what he bought and what his rights are. Now it is just time to pay to fix it, or dump it.

A side point, but if it is taking six pages to display this thread, you may want to change the settings in User CP, Options. I use 40 posts per page myself. Saves a lot of time.

[TheGodfather]

Originally Posted by JCL

A side point, but if it is taking six pages to display this thread, you may want to change the settings in User CP, Options. I use 40 posts per page myself. Saves a lot of time.

Thanks, I never even thought of this.

[dragoncoach]

Originally Posted by JCL

The OP never said that he went back to the selling (Honda) dealer. He said he went to an independent to get a diagnosis.

I can't see any value in dealing with lawyers or the selling dealer. OP seems to know exactly what he bought and what his rights are. Now it is just time to pay to fix it, or dump it.

A side point, but if it is taking six pages to display this thread, you may want to change the settings in User CP, Options. I use 40 posts per page myself. Saves a lot of time.

It doesn't hurt to try to go back to the dealer but I can't understand why he didn't. I would have and at least asked if they could help him. The OP probably bought the car cheap because the dealer just wanted to move it off the lot. However, if there was no inspection done and the buyer was told, too bad but he should have gotten a PPI done (unless he was trying to "save" money. btw, Thanks for the tip re: setting changes!

[vegasX5]

I think this topic has been covered thoroughly by every one elses suggestions/opinioins, but I thought I'd share an anecdotal experience I had when I bought my X5 from a used car dealer.

When I bought mine, it was a lease return with about 38,000 miles and the price was phenomenal. I think it was roughly $14 under Kelly retail and about $9k under Edmunds. I found it on Autotrader minutes after it was posted, and by the time I got down there there were 3 other people already looking at it. I basically took one look at it, drove it around the block, and said I'll take it. Now, I realized what a liability it was at the time, but the deal was too smoking to pass up and figured I could afford a couple small things that went wrong because of how well I bought it.

About 3 weeks later, it sprung a little coolant leak, and then a couple days later the climate control totally stopped working. After reading up here, I found they weren't uncommon issues (expansion tank and FSR), but they weren't things I was happy about paying a mechanic to fix. So, I called up the dealer I bought it from and simply said "Hey Martin, I'm really enjoying my car, but I've had a couple small issues. Did you know about these or have a mechanic look at it?" I told him what they were, and he said well to be honest he didn't have his guy look at it, but he told me to bring it back and he'd have his mechanic take a look at it because his rates are way cheaper than what I would find elsewhere. I had a backup car to drive so I left the X5 with him for a few days.

He called me and said everything was fixed and to come pick it up. So I came with my checkbook just assuming he'd hand me an invoice. When I showed up, he handed me the keys and apologized. I said no problem - how much? He said he just has an account and wasn't sure what the $ damage was. I said ok well how can I pay the bill if I don't know what it is? He laughed and said not to worry about it! I couldn't believe him and honestly try to pay but he wouldn't accept it.

All I'm saying is that I was clearly aware he had no fiscal or legal responsibility in the matter, but I approached him amiably and he responded in a way I never anticipated. You never know what the outcome is when you go back to dealer, but I think it definitely well worth it to try. It doesn't matter IMO if you have "legal" standing or if you signed as-is docs, from an ethical standpoint what happened to the OP sucks and a stand up dealer would make it right (or at least be of some assistance). It never hurts to try!

[CT_X5_Joe]

Correct! Most dealer will "goodwill" work regardless if it was sold as is. This is especially true for local dealers.

For anyone who has worked in the auto industry (guessing most on here have not) you understand that your main selling advantage, and really the only way to over come a price sensitive shopper, is to sell the value add of buying from a local dealer.

I'm not saying the dealer will fix the problem or even saying they are morally obligated too, I am simp lying saying it's worth a shot as the buyer bought local and not the lowest priced online.

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by vegasX5

All I'm saying is that I was clearly aware he had no fiscal or legal responsibility in the matter, but I approached him amiably and he responded in a way I never anticipated. You never know what the outcome is when you go back to dealer, but I think it definitely well worth it to try. It doesn't matter IMO if you have "legal" standing or if you signed as-is docs, from an ethical standpoint what happened to the OP sucks and a stand up dealer would make it right (or at least be of some assistance). It never hurts to try!

While I agree with your conclusion that it doesn't hurt to try I disagree with the conclusion the dealer did anything unethical.

First we don't even know if the transmission will need to be replaced or not. Until the OP comes back and says as much such a conclusion is solely based on speculation. For all we know the fault code stored by the computer could be accurate and it merely needs a sensor replaced.

Second, the dealer sold the vehicle "as is". I don't know why people think "as is" means anything more than what it is: The buyer is assuming all risk.

Third, I see no evidence the buyer was deceived, mislead, or coerced. To the contrary the dealer stated they had not performed an inspection, the SEL was on during the entire sales process, and the sales person appears to have communicated an accurate description of the stored code to the buyer.

I see absolutely zero fault by the dealer. I see no reason for them to even perform a partial goodwill repair. And I'm curious to know why others think they should.

[CT_X5_Joe]

Where did anyone fault the dealer or use the word unethical?

All I'm trying to do is help the guy out. As someone who spent 10 years in the auto/boating industry I saw more than enough work get done for little to nothing out of pocket to the owner. 99% of the time the work performed was done by the dealer to raise a bad CSI score or to aid a local customer.