My First BMW 2002 X5 4.4!!! Got Screwed!!!

[CT_X5_Joe]

Originally Posted by sunny5280

How much they made is irrelevant. If you buy something "as is" then you assume all responsibility.

So where is the harm in asking for help from the dealer? Did you sell jhigbee the car???

[vegasX5]

My comment about any unethical behavior on the part of the dealer was reading between the lines of what actually occured, because the original poster has left us without critical information. As in my case, I received such a good deal on my X5 at the time that I truly didn't mind if a couple repairs came up because I bought it well. If this is the same case as the OP, then the dealer may not have been unethical at all.

However, I was primarily basing my comment on the statement of the sales guy who said the CEL was on because of a "sensor". I know from first hand experience, as I'm sure anyone who's been to a used car lot, that sales people will tell you anything to try to get you to buy a car. If a mechanic never inspected the car before he made that comment, he would have no idea the extent of what the CEL could be. I think it is unethical for a dealer or sales person to make statements that they can't verify or know for certain what they're saying is accurate. However, it always the responsibility of the customer to verify what anyone tells them. Buying a car as-is based on the assurances of a sales person is flat dangerous - I think caveat emptor applies here.

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

As a private seller of a vehicle I would in no way be able to repair the said problem, and as a result not expected to pay for it. This is of course assuming I never offered any warranty when selling the vehicle.

You don't have to repair it. You just need to cover the cost of having it repaired.

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

A dealer has the ability to repair vehicles at a substantially lower rate than the posted retail repair cost. As a result dealers use this as a bargaining item to appease the customer when they return looking for free repairs. The dealer may, for example, offer a 20% discount, or perhaps cover the labor and ask the customer to pay for the part. The logic behind this is the upset customer is made happy (somewhat happy, not truly happy) and the dealer usually offsets the cost of the free labor with the markup on the nessisary parts.

My question is: Why should the buyer be upset at the dealer when, it appears, full disclosure was given and he agreed to an "as is" sale? It annoys me to no end that people expect businesses to make up for their failings.

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

Where did you buy your car Sunny? Local dealer? When did you buy it? How much did you negotiate? (based on your responses above you strike me as a self titled all-star negotiator) What is the nature of the nessisary repair? How long have you done business with this dealer? What CSI score (if any) did you give?

I bought my 2001 X5 at McDonald Hyundai in Denver which is local to me. I believe I negotiated $2,500 off the price.

After that I took it to my mechanic for an inspection. Something I do before I purchase any vehicle but especially in this case because the SEL was illuminated. My mechanic estimated it would cost no more than $2,000 to correct the problems.

I returned to the dealer and showed them all the issues the mechanic found:

• Engine mis-fires were setting the SEL but the mechanic couldn't say why without digging into it. My mechanic estimated it would cost no more than $1,000 to fix.
• Torn CV boots. Mechanic recommended both axles should be replaced as it was roughly $30 more per axle to replace the entire axle instead of just the CV boot. Roughly $600 for this work.
• Self leveling sensor for the headlights. Roughly $150.

That comes to $1,750 without tax. I threw in an additional $250 to cover taxes and miscellaneous. Dealer flat out rejected it. Said I negotiated so well before the inspection they didn't have it. So I walked.

About an hour later I received a call from the dealer. The used car manager asked why the X5 was still on the lot. And when he found out he drove the X5 down to my mechanic (it was a mile or so away). He explained to my mechanic he suspected the SEL was illuminated due to water getting on the ignition from the detailing they performed but they did not have the means to clear it on a BMW (which I know is incorrect as any OBD-II scanner can clear it). He asked my mechanic to clear it (he has BMW specific equipment) and they took it for a 15 minute test drive and the SEL did not re-appear. I asked my mechanic what he thought of this explanation and he said it was possible but couldn't say for certain.

To make the story short I'll summarize: The used car manager took off an additional $500 for the CV boots and agreed, in writing, to allow me to return the vehicle if the SEL should illuminate over the weekend. I drove that puppy all weekend long and no SEL.

On Tuesday, the day after our agreement ended, the SEL illuminated. I contacted the dealer to see what they would do: Nothing. They explained they fullfilled their end of the agreement (which they did) and considered our deal completed.

I took it to my mechanic and the first thing they recommended was replacing the spark plugs (as they were original and the vehicle had 108K miles on it). Given the recommendation is to replace them at 100K miles I didn't see any reason not to try this. In the process they also change the coils to see if the codes changed cylinders. This did not solve the problem and cost me approximately $351.06.

The next thing we tried was to change the cam position sensors (CPS). This did not solve the problem. My mechanic did this at no cost as it is fairly trivila to do.

The next thing was a thorough inspection of the hoses and he discovered the oil separator hoses were worn out and leaking into the atmosphere. This solved the problem and ended up costing me $339.84.

Total cost: $690.90 to fix the SEL issue.

I didn't go bitching and moaning to people how the dealer took advantage of me and how they should fix the problem. I made the deal I did, asked the dealer for a goodwill gesture, and when they refused accepted my situation and paid for the repair.

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

Let's get back to our forum friend jhigbee's original post. He asked for any help. Assuming his state doesn't have a lemon law, and assuming his bill of sale reads as yours does, with the large, 18-20 point type, boc check off reading AS IS-NO WARANTY, what would you offer him as advice??

Already done. See post number 33:

"To the OP: Take it to a good independent (seems you have already done this) and have them check it out. There are many aspects to the transmission and this problem alone doesn't necessarily mean the entire transmission needs replaced. A good repair facility that specializes in BMW should be able to tell you what is wrong."

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by vegasX5

My comment about any unethical behavior on the part of the dealer was reading between the lines of what actually occured, because the original poster has left us without critical information. As in my case, I received such a good deal on my X5 at the time that I truly didn't mind if a couple repairs came up because I bought it well. If this is the same case as the OP, then the dealer may not have been unethical at all.

However, I was primarily basing my comment on the statement of the sales guy who said the CEL was on because of a "sensor". I know from first hand experience, as I'm sure anyone who's been to a used car lot, that sales people will tell you anything to try to get you to buy a car. If a mechanic never inspected the car before he made that comment, he would have no idea the extent of what the CEL could be. I think it is unethical for a dealer or sales person to make statements that they can't verify or know for certain what they're saying is accurate. However, it always the responsibility of the customer to verify what anyone tells them. Buying a car as-is based on the assurances of a sales person is flat dangerous - I think caveat emptor applies here.

Which appears to be an accurate statement given the code recorded by the computer indicates a problem with a sensor. And the dealer wouldn't have to do an inspection to determine this. They may have just read the code and said "Let's not bother with this. Discount it and sell it".

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

So where is the harm in asking for help from the dealer? Did you sell jhigbee the car???

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I absolutely agree he should ask them. You never know if they'll help him out. What I object to is the expectation the dealer owes him any form of compensation for the repair and if they do not they're unethical.

[CT_X5_Joe]

Legally speaking, the dealer owes him nothing. From a moral standpoint, the only item in question is what the salesman said about the CEL being on. If the salesman was BSing the customer by saying the CEL was on from a sensor (without actually knowing if this is true, or if the CEL is on for a larger problem, say a tranny issue) then this is a morally flawed salesman. This however, does not help our friend jhigbee, as he bought it as is.

I agree with your post (#33) as that is also a fine option. All good advice.

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

Legally speaking, the dealer owes him nothing. From a moral standpoint, the only item in question is what the salesman said about the CEL being on. If the salesman was BSing the customer by saying the CEL was on from a sensor (without actually knowing if this is true, or if the CEL is on for a larger problem, say a tranny issue) then this is a morally flawed salesman. This however, does not help our friend jhigbee, as he bought it as is.

I agree with your post (#33) as that is also a fine option. All good advice.

From what we know I don't believe the salesman was being misleading. From the OP's original post he said:

"The check engine light is on and I get a trans failed safe error. Error code is P0721."

It was obvious from the start there was a transmission problem. From the very next post (post #2) we see:

"P0721 means that the transmission output speed sensor is out of synch with vehicle speed"

It seems to me the salesman knew about the code, what the description for it was, and informed the OP about it. Everything I've read points to full, honest disclosure by the dealer.

[dragoncoach]

Originally Posted by sunny5280

How much they made is irrelevant. If you buy something "as is" then you assume all responsibility.

I am saying if a dealer made a lot of money on a car, they MAY consider making some kind of concession. If they made little or no money, they would be less prone to fix anything. If you read my posts, I am fully aware of "as is". I worked at a dealer for over 20 years.

[dragoncoach]

Originally Posted by tkasser

This is far from true. It happens all the time that a dealer will lose money on a car. They try not to lose money, just like every other business. Dealers aren't there for charity. They are there to make money, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I've dealt with dealers for over 20 years and very seldom if ever do they lose money on a sale. This is especially true of a trade in they turn over quickly and don't do any reconditioning to. This is why dealers r@pe you when trade in a car. The low ball trade prices is their cushion when reselling. Pieces of junk and $500 trades, are sold to wholesalers. Believe me they don't lose money on car sales.