My First BMW 2002 X5 4.4!!! Got Screwed!!!

[CT_X5_Joe]

Depends. As a private seller? No. I would say "as-is, where is, no warranty expressed or implied". I would also add to my bill of sale "by signing below the buyer agrees that any all inspections have been performed and the results are satisfactory" and I would even add for good measure " the listing condition is the opinion of the seller and in no way represents or adheres to any standards used within the auto industry".

Now. As a dealer, if I owed a shop that was financially capable of providing free work for a local customer, I would. As a former salesman, I would work on the behalf of the customer to have something covered. If I was the dealerships GM I would ask my team the following 1. What's wrong/broken. 2. Whats the cost of repair? Retail and true cost? 3. How upset is the customer.

Depending on the answers to the above three questions I would consider doing the work/reducing the cost.

NOW, if the customer doesn't ask for anything (as part of above question #3) I wouldnt do anything. If the customer was following up daily by phone/email and maybe paying a visit to the store I would consider doing work/assisting the customer. Again, this depends on the total cost of the nessisary work.

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

Depends. As a private seller? No. I would say "as-is, where is, no warranty expressed or implied". I would also add to my bill of sale "by signing below the buyer agrees that any all inspections have been performed and the results are satisfactory" and I would even add for good measure " the listing condition is the opinion of the seller and in no way represents or adheres to any standards used within the auto industry".

I suspect the OP signed a document stating at least the first condition you listed. With that said why, as a private seller, do you not feel obligated to perform a repair?

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

Now. As a dealer, if I owed a shop that was financially capable of providing free work for a local customer, I would. As a former salesman, I would work on the behalf of the customer to have something covered. If I was the dealerships GM I would ask my team the following 1. What's wrong/broken. 2. Whats the cost of repair? Retail and true cost? 3. How upset is the customer.

I'm looking at the documentation for the 2001 X5 I purchased. In that pile of paperwork is a piece of paper specifically addressing whether the vehicle is or is not covered under warranty. It has large (18-20 point type?) text that makes it very easy to determine whether the vehicle does or does not have a warranty (because there is a big checkbox right next to "AS IS-NO WARRANTY" (exact wording and case) and "WARRANTY" (exact wording and case). Below the "AS IS-NO WARRANTY" is some smaller, yet still very large (12-14 point type?) that says "YOU WILL PAY ALL COST FOR ANY REPAIRS. The dealer assumes no responsibility for any repairs regardless of any oral statements about this vehicle." (again, exact text and case). This is a standard form that appears to be used by dealers here in Colorado. While I can't say if the OP signed this particular form I suspect he signed something which basically says the same thing. Given this should I expect the dealer to have paid for any repairs immediately after I drove it off the lot?

Edit: Here's a link to the form:

ASIS Buyers Guide with Tape

[CT_X5_Joe]

As a private seller of a vehicle I would in no way be able to repair the said problem, and as a result not expected to pay for it. This is of course assuming I never offered any warranty when selling the vehicle.

A dealer has the ability to repair vehicles at a substantially lower rate than the posted retail repair cost. As a result dealers use this as a bargaining item to appease the customer when they return looking for free repairs. The dealer may, for example, offer a 20% discount, or perhaps cover the labor and ask the customer to pay for the part. The logic behind this is the upset customer is made happy (somewhat happy, not truly happy) and the dealer usually offsets the cost of the free labor with the markup on the nessisary parts.

Where did you buy your car Sunny? Local dealer? When did you buy it? How much did you negotiate? (based on your responses above you strike me as a self titled all-star negotiator) What is the nature of the nessisary repair? How long have you done business with this dealer? What CSI score (if any) did you give?

No two cases are the same, and the above questions are the type of information a dealer will need to consider before offering a reduced repair cost.

Let's get back to our forum friend jhigbee's original post. He asked for any help. Assuming his state doesn't have a lemon law, and assuming his bill of sale reads as yours does, with the large, 18-20 point type, boc check off reading AS IS-NO WARANTY, what would you offer him as advice??

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

As a private seller of a vehicle I would in no way be able to repair the said problem, and as a result not expected to pay for it. This is of course assuming I never offered any warranty when selling the vehicle.

You don't have to repair it. You just need to cover the cost of having it repaired.

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

A dealer has the ability to repair vehicles at a substantially lower rate than the posted retail repair cost. As a result dealers use this as a bargaining item to appease the customer when they return looking for free repairs. The dealer may, for example, offer a 20% discount, or perhaps cover the labor and ask the customer to pay for the part. The logic behind this is the upset customer is made happy (somewhat happy, not truly happy) and the dealer usually offsets the cost of the free labor with the markup on the nessisary parts.

My question is: Why should the buyer be upset at the dealer when, it appears, full disclosure was given and he agreed to an "as is" sale? It annoys me to no end that people expect businesses to make up for their failings.

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

Where did you buy your car Sunny? Local dealer? When did you buy it? How much did you negotiate? (based on your responses above you strike me as a self titled all-star negotiator) What is the nature of the nessisary repair? How long have you done business with this dealer? What CSI score (if any) did you give?

I bought my 2001 X5 at McDonald Hyundai in Denver which is local to me. I believe I negotiated $2,500 off the price.

After that I took it to my mechanic for an inspection. Something I do before I purchase any vehicle but especially in this case because the SEL was illuminated. My mechanic estimated it would cost no more than $2,000 to correct the problems.

I returned to the dealer and showed them all the issues the mechanic found:

• Engine mis-fires were setting the SEL but the mechanic couldn't say why without digging into it. My mechanic estimated it would cost no more than $1,000 to fix.
• Torn CV boots. Mechanic recommended both axles should be replaced as it was roughly $30 more per axle to replace the entire axle instead of just the CV boot. Roughly $600 for this work.
• Self leveling sensor for the headlights. Roughly $150.

That comes to $1,750 without tax. I threw in an additional $250 to cover taxes and miscellaneous. Dealer flat out rejected it. Said I negotiated so well before the inspection they didn't have it. So I walked.

About an hour later I received a call from the dealer. The used car manager asked why the X5 was still on the lot. And when he found out he drove the X5 down to my mechanic (it was a mile or so away). He explained to my mechanic he suspected the SEL was illuminated due to water getting on the ignition from the detailing they performed but they did not have the means to clear it on a BMW (which I know is incorrect as any OBD-II scanner can clear it). He asked my mechanic to clear it (he has BMW specific equipment) and they took it for a 15 minute test drive and the SEL did not re-appear. I asked my mechanic what he thought of this explanation and he said it was possible but couldn't say for certain.

To make the story short I'll summarize: The used car manager took off an additional $500 for the CV boots and agreed, in writing, to allow me to return the vehicle if the SEL should illuminate over the weekend. I drove that puppy all weekend long and no SEL.

On Tuesday, the day after our agreement ended, the SEL illuminated. I contacted the dealer to see what they would do: Nothing. They explained they fullfilled their end of the agreement (which they did) and considered our deal completed.

I took it to my mechanic and the first thing they recommended was replacing the spark plugs (as they were original and the vehicle had 108K miles on it). Given the recommendation is to replace them at 100K miles I didn't see any reason not to try this. In the process they also change the coils to see if the codes changed cylinders. This did not solve the problem and cost me approximately $351.06.

The next thing we tried was to change the cam position sensors (CPS). This did not solve the problem. My mechanic did this at no cost as it is fairly trivila to do.

The next thing was a thorough inspection of the hoses and he discovered the oil separator hoses were worn out and leaking into the atmosphere. This solved the problem and ended up costing me $339.84.

Total cost: $690.90 to fix the SEL issue.

I didn't go bitching and moaning to people how the dealer took advantage of me and how they should fix the problem. I made the deal I did, asked the dealer for a goodwill gesture, and when they refused accepted my situation and paid for the repair.

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

Let's get back to our forum friend jhigbee's original post. He asked for any help. Assuming his state doesn't have a lemon law, and assuming his bill of sale reads as yours does, with the large, 18-20 point type, boc check off reading AS IS-NO WARANTY, what would you offer him as advice??

Already done. See post number 33:

"To the OP: Take it to a good independent (seems you have already done this) and have them check it out. There are many aspects to the transmission and this problem alone doesn't necessarily mean the entire transmission needs replaced. A good repair facility that specializes in BMW should be able to tell you what is wrong."

[vegasX5]

My comment about any unethical behavior on the part of the dealer was reading between the lines of what actually occured, because the original poster has left us without critical information. As in my case, I received such a good deal on my X5 at the time that I truly didn't mind if a couple repairs came up because I bought it well. If this is the same case as the OP, then the dealer may not have been unethical at all.

However, I was primarily basing my comment on the statement of the sales guy who said the CEL was on because of a "sensor". I know from first hand experience, as I'm sure anyone who's been to a used car lot, that sales people will tell you anything to try to get you to buy a car. If a mechanic never inspected the car before he made that comment, he would have no idea the extent of what the CEL could be. I think it is unethical for a dealer or sales person to make statements that they can't verify or know for certain what they're saying is accurate. However, it always the responsibility of the customer to verify what anyone tells them. Buying a car as-is based on the assurances of a sales person is flat dangerous - I think caveat emptor applies here.

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by vegasX5

My comment about any unethical behavior on the part of the dealer was reading between the lines of what actually occured, because the original poster has left us without critical information. As in my case, I received such a good deal on my X5 at the time that I truly didn't mind if a couple repairs came up because I bought it well. If this is the same case as the OP, then the dealer may not have been unethical at all.

However, I was primarily basing my comment on the statement of the sales guy who said the CEL was on because of a "sensor". I know from first hand experience, as I'm sure anyone who's been to a used car lot, that sales people will tell you anything to try to get you to buy a car. If a mechanic never inspected the car before he made that comment, he would have no idea the extent of what the CEL could be. I think it is unethical for a dealer or sales person to make statements that they can't verify or know for certain what they're saying is accurate. However, it always the responsibility of the customer to verify what anyone tells them. Buying a car as-is based on the assurances of a sales person is flat dangerous - I think caveat emptor applies here.

Which appears to be an accurate statement given the code recorded by the computer indicates a problem with a sensor. And the dealer wouldn't have to do an inspection to determine this. They may have just read the code and said "Let's not bother with this. Discount it and sell it".

[CT_X5_Joe]

Legally speaking, the dealer owes him nothing. From a moral standpoint, the only item in question is what the salesman said about the CEL being on. If the salesman was BSing the customer by saying the CEL was on from a sensor (without actually knowing if this is true, or if the CEL is on for a larger problem, say a tranny issue) then this is a morally flawed salesman. This however, does not help our friend jhigbee, as he bought it as is.

I agree with your post (#33) as that is also a fine option. All good advice.

[sunny5280]

Originally Posted by CT_X5_Joe

Legally speaking, the dealer owes him nothing. From a moral standpoint, the only item in question is what the salesman said about the CEL being on. If the salesman was BSing the customer by saying the CEL was on from a sensor (without actually knowing if this is true, or if the CEL is on for a larger problem, say a tranny issue) then this is a morally flawed salesman. This however, does not help our friend jhigbee, as he bought it as is.

I agree with your post (#33) as that is also a fine option. All good advice.

From what we know I don't believe the salesman was being misleading. From the OP's original post he said:

"The check engine light is on and I get a trans failed safe error. Error code is P0721."

It was obvious from the start there was a transmission problem. From the very next post (post #2) we see:

"P0721 means that the transmission output speed sensor is out of synch with vehicle speed"

It seems to me the salesman knew about the code, what the description for it was, and informed the OP about it. Everything I've read points to full, honest disclosure by the dealer.