Home Forums Articles How To's FAQ Register
Go Back   Xoutpost.com > BMW SAV Forums > X5 (E53) Forum
Fluid Motor Union
User Name
Password
Member List Premier Membership Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Xoutpost server transfer and maintenance is occurring....
Xoutpost is currently undergoing a planned server migration.... stay tuned for new developments.... sincerely, the management


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #111  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:23 PM
bcredliner's Avatar
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Little Elm,Texas. (40 minutes North of Dallas)
Posts: 7,855
bcredliner is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL View Post
I think that is a very reasonable approach, to continue with the fluid that worked for you. My only caution would be that without a spec to conform to, any fluid is subject to changes from time to time and the fluid you buy one year may be different than what you buy a year later. Oil companies are pretty famous for changing their fluids in the interests of marketing, usually calling it reformulation. What the spec does is provide some comfort that there is a standardized fluid being offered.
it is extremely important to be consistent with the fluid used both in brand and specifications.
__________________
X5 4.6 2002 Black Sap, Black interior. 2013 X5M Melbourne Red, Bamboo interior
Dallas
Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links

  #112  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:27 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doru View Post
However, if you attempt to do an ATF change at the dealership, I know of 2 different scenarios:
  1. They don't do it, pure & simple (this was my case - I went there and asked for it)
  2. Some select dealerships are doing it for a very handsom bill.
The issue why some aren't doing it (and I speculate here), is because if that tranny wasn't serviced on a regular basis, and now a client pulls in for an ATF change, and after the change, the tranny will grenade itself, the dealer is in for a new ZF (or what the case may be) unit. The proof would be that bill of sale, plus every repair made in a BMW dealership is warrantied for 1 year parts and labor (at least it is here, in my neck of woods).
Two year warranty from the dealer here in Canada. And you are correct IMO on the dealers not wanting to take on the risk. They only have to look at their profit/loss statement to see how much they make doing changes, and how much it costs them in transmissions that subsequently fail. Many shops do that and just decide they don't want the business, it is too much risk for too little reward.

bcredliner commented above that BMW doesn't say not to change the fluid. This is BMW saying that, through their dealer network. They don't say it in the owner's manuals (although the technical workshop manual says to drain the fluid and reinstall it if a dealer needs to drop a transmission pan for a sensor or actuator fix).
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:29 PM
bcredliner's Avatar
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Little Elm,Texas. (40 minutes North of Dallas)
Posts: 7,855
bcredliner is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doru View Post
BMW took it back (the "Lifetime" BS). On the e39 for example, the owners manual - up to 2002, this was exactly what was printed - lifetime fluid. Starting with 2003 (last model year), the print has changed with the 100,000 miles ATF change interval. My owners manual has the 100 k miles ATF change interval. However, if you attempt to do an ATF change at the dealership, I know of 2 different scenarios:
  1. They don't do it, pure & simple (this was my case - I went there and asked for it)
  2. Some select dealerships are doing it for a very hansom bill.
The issue why some aren't doing it (and I speculate here), is because if that tranny wasn't serviced on a regular basis, and now a client pulls in for an ATF change, and after the change, the tranny will grenade itself, the dealer is in for a new ZF (or what the case may be) unit. The proof would be that bill of sale, plus every repair made in a BMW dealership is warrantied for 1 year parts and labor (at least it is here, in my neck of woods).

Actually ZF policy is TO SERVICE the tranny every 100,000 Km or 60,000 miles. Just take a look at this post here, where a different forum member brought the BMW for a tranny service in Germany. I wish we had here in N America the same level of service for those trannies. I would go there 100% sure. The service includes more than changing the ATF. Just read on.
I haven't read a U.S. post that reads any X5 transmission should be serviced at some number of miles. Your reference is the E34 tranny and the international info is for the E34 tranny. Do they have the same transmission as some X5s ,and, if so, what model tranny is that?
__________________
X5 4.6 2002 Black Sap, Black interior. 2013 X5M Melbourne Red, Bamboo interior
Dallas

Last edited by bcredliner; 10-24-2013 at 12:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:31 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
it is extremely important to be consistent with the fluid used both in brand and specifications.
I don't know how to ensure that consistency if using fluids that are not tested to standard specifications and so certified.

Personally, I am less concerned with the consistency of the brand. I think testing and certifying to the specification takes the brand out of the equation somewhat.
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:58 PM
bcredliner's Avatar
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Little Elm,Texas. (40 minutes North of Dallas)
Posts: 7,855
bcredliner is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL View Post
I don't know how to ensure that consistency if using fluids that are not tested to standard specifications and so certified.

Personally, I am less concerned with the consistency of the brand. I think testing and certifying to the specification takes the brand out of the equation somewhat.
The certification of the specifications would take brand out of the equation. As I interpret your post-- what is on aftermarket product is not certified so it is not a necessarily a match to BMW fluid. For that reason your recommendation is to use BMW Fluid. While most of us have a brand preference from past experience and we may have used that particular fluid with satisfactory results in an X5 tranny, that is not the safest way to go. Did I get that right?
__________________
X5 4.6 2002 Black Sap, Black interior. 2013 X5M Melbourne Red, Bamboo interior
Dallas
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 10-24-2013, 01:05 PM
TiAgX5's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Coppell,TX
Posts: 3,489
TiAgX5 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL View Post
TiAg: I like your signature quote.



But we should also be dedicated to craftsmanship in writing, especially if we are going to expound the philosophy.
Thanks JCL and I agree.

It was a toss up between that and "Don't corrupt the host to pasify the parasites."
__________________
'03 X5 4.4 Sport, last of the M62s (8-03 build date)
I believe in deadication to craftmanship in a world of mediocrity!

Last edited by TiAgX5; 10-24-2013 at 01:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 10-24-2013, 01:41 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 747
Doru is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
I haven't read a U.S. post that reads any X5 transmission should be serviced at some number of miles. Your reference is the E34 tranny and the international info is for the E34 tranny. Do they have the same transmission as some X5s ,and, if so, what model tranny is that?
No, no, no. It's also for the e39 tranny. They are equipped with the ZF 5HP19 & 5HP24 flavor, pretty much what the 3l & 4.4l engine have, up to 2003. ZF Transmission Application Chart & Specs
__________________
Stable: e92is, e46 M54B25, e83 N52, e53 N62 - sold, e39 M54B30 R.I.P.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:42 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Blantyre
Posts: 20
PsYcHe is on a distinguished road
The ZF 5HP units are also used in the D2 (94-2002) Audi A8's and exhibit a similar number of issues (I have an A8 as well as the X5).

Some of the problems the Audi guys have seen:

1 - Hunting 4/5 (sometimes 3/4) - low revs with no accelleration at around the shift point, the revs will hunt up and down as if the box can't decide which gear to be in

2 - 'Shunt' - 60mph or so with a slow down, TC will drop lock and then bang back into gear.

Both usually sorted or at least reduced with a filter and oil flush (Audi also claim sealed for life). Newer models also suffered from the F-seal failure and would either only select reverse or not select it at all.

Preventative maintenance is usually better than cure, and 40-50k oil swaps seem to be the best option. Though in Europe we're a bit more spoiled for ZF shops, my local one does a oil swap using a special machine of some kind for about 150 ($220ish).
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:54 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
The certification of the specifications would take brand out of the equation. As I interpret your post-- what is on aftermarket product is not certified so it is not a necessarily a match to BMW fluid. For that reason your recommendation is to use BMW Fluid. While most of us have a brand preference from past experience and we may have used that particular fluid with satisfactory results in an X5 tranny, that is not the safest way to go. Did I get that right?
Since BMW don't have their own fluid (it is a ZF fluid spec, since ZF built the transmission) I would leave BMW out of it. I think it needs to be a fluid that meets the ZF Lifeguard spec (5 or 6, depending on the ZF transmission under discussion). The fluid could be from BMW, VW, Audi, etc, or from ZF themselves. It could also be from a major oil company like Shell, Castrol, Pentosin, etc, if the fluid in question was certified to the ZF spec. Many of them are.

What is available in the aftermarket other than the certified ZF fluids are a variety of generic fluids that their manufacturers claim will do just fine in a ZF transmission. And they may do so in some applications. Certainly some posters here have had good results with the non-ZF fluid they bought from time to time. But that is where the risk is. I think ZF know more about the fluid requirement than a distributor who blends ATF himself. And some major oil companies are selling a certified fluid alongside a different generic fluid (but with the same brand label) that is claimed to work in everything from a Toyota to a BMW, covering four or more different transmission manufacturer' fluid specs with a single fluid.

We all have our favourite OEM suppliers. I like Castrol myself, I have had good results with their products. But when I use a Castrol motor oil in my BMW I know that it meets the API SM or SN spec, and that it is also an SAE 5w-30. There are standard tests available, and those two specs provide a baseline. As much as I like Castrol as a supplier, I won't use a Castrol ATF in my BMW except in my power steering system, where it works fine. Castrol don't sell a certified transmission fluid that ZF has tested, at least not in my market. They certainly may do so in other markets.

What alerts me to the risk with the Castrol generic multi-vehicle ATF, just as an example, is that they claim it is a Dexron compatible fluid, and also a ZF Lifeguard compatible fluid. Compatible, not certified or tested. But we know that Dexron fluid (true Dexron) doesn't work in a ZF 5 or 6 speed transmission. The problems have been documented. It has to do with clutch engagement points. I know from experience that manufacturers fine-tune ATF recipes to resolve shifting issues, usually with friction modifiers. They have even shipped out the friction modifiers in small bottles to dealers, to add to a transmission that is exhibiting shifting problems. So I believe that the friction modifiers that they incorporate can matter. I am left with the conclusion that this generic fluid either isn't really a ZF compatible fluid, or it isn't really a Dexron compatible fluid. One of the above is true. Both cases are problematic IMO. Not taking anything away from Castrol here, but they, along with many other oil companies, use the phrases "certified to meet xxxx" and "suitable for where xxxx is called for" and the phrases are not the same. It doesn't mean that a generic fluid will cause a transmission to blow up, we know that isn't true. But it does mean that the DIYer or shop that uses a generic fluid in place of the certified fluid has decided to accept that additional risk. I just think there are enough risks with these transmissions without adding to them. All IMO.
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 10-25-2013, 10:05 AM
bcredliner's Avatar
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Little Elm,Texas. (40 minutes North of Dallas)
Posts: 7,855
bcredliner is on a distinguished road
other than to note that my reference to BMW fluid was the fluid purchased at BMW not that BMW mfgs. fluid. For those that are unsure what is good fluid and what may not be good, the safest route (putting aside the cost) would be to purchase the fluid BMW dealers sell.
__________________
X5 4.6 2002 Black Sap, Black interior. 2013 X5M Melbourne Red, Bamboo interior
Dallas
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:02 AM.
vBulletin, Copyright 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
2017 Xoutpost.com. All rights reserved. Xoutpost.com is a private enthusiast site not associated with BMW AG.
The BMW name, marks, M stripe logo, and Roundel logo as well as X3, X5 and X6 designations used in the pages of this Web Site are the property of BMW AG.
This web site is not sponsored or affiliated in any way with BMW AG or any of its subsidiaries.