BMW X5 CCV

[Sniffer]

Hi Guys

So I have a 2002 4.6IS X5 (built 05/2002) and its breaking me - a month ago I replaced some gaskets cos the CCV froze up and blew them - at this point the mechanic (a well clued up ex BMW independent who appears to be very knowledgeable) also installed an additional crancase vent that blows off if the pressure rises above 0 PSI (I hope I`m getting this right as I think thats what he said) - this would prevent the same issue from happening he reckoned

Fast forward a couple of weeks and to my horror I get all the same symptoms on my journey home (burning smell, low oil light and a warning in the cluster regarding low oil pressure) - identical to before so back to the garage and this time its a couple of hoses that have perished and subsequently burst - he replaces them and I`m good, he also informs me that he rerouted some vacuum line or something along those lines and this would help - he has done this modification before and has never had the same problem occur on the vehicles since - sounds good

So I get home tonight and I get the burning smell again (I`m tempted to throw petrol on it at this point) and while there are no warning lights this time the engine bay is once again covered in oil so I think its safe to say that the problem is along the same lines again

I love this vehicle when its running but so far its been a complete money pit and I`m genuinely driving round wondering what will fail next - Ive got a list of other things that I`ll be asking about which will need addressing but for right now this is a priority as the X5 is our only vehicle

Do BMW have a fix for this? I heard something about a heated CCV pipe - does such a thing exist for my 4.6IS? If not is it possible to make a heated version with heat trace or similar? I`m getting desperate and need a solution

Thanks in advance

[JCL]

It doesn't sound as if your mechanic is as clued up as you believe, unless it was an honest mistake he made and he paid for the rework on repairs 2 and 3.

If it is freezing up, then there is condensate there to freeze. An additional pressure relief valve could freeze up just like the CCV system does, as it serves the same purpose. And an additional valve wouldn't address the risk of the valve freezing in the open position, and drawing oil from the sump into the intake.

Sounds like the system needs to be returned to the original design, and all cleaned out. It doesn't sound like all the lines were cleaned out when your mechanic worked on it, and that the condensate in the lines just moved on down to the CCV to freeze again. Just guessing here, it is hard to diagnose over the web.

I wouldn't be trying to redesign it. The vehicle is 12 years old. It has been through 12 winters. Problems that show up after 12 years are not generally considered design issues, they are much more likely to be maintenance issues.

[StephenVA]

+1

[Sniffer]

Thanks for the replies

To clarify, repair one was costly (around $1000), repair two was between $300 and $400 and repair three hasnt taken place yet as it only manifested itself last night.

I tried calling the mechanic (who seems like a decent guy and I genuinely believe knows his BMWs) but didnt get through so I emailed him and he basically told me that he had never seen one give so much trouble, he reckons I have two options - fit some running gear from the 5 series that reroutes the problematic parts and cures the problem (but its pricey ~$2000) or sell it!

To expand a little on the details I live in Alberta Canada and we get lots of freezing and anything between 0 and -40 is not unusual for a large portion of the year

The car has been through many previous winters but this is the first one that Ive had it for as I only bought it 3 months ago. The previous owner was quite mechanically minded and did at least some of his own work and I truly believe he knew about this problem but neglected to mention it (the CCV pipework had had additional insulation applied to protect against this very issue as my mechanic found this when it was stripped), I also believe he didnt use this vehicle in freezing conditions due to this fault as he had 4 cars in total so he used another for those colder spells

I am reluctant to believe that putting this system back to standard will make the problem go away - it has became an issue three times in a month and even assuming that the mechanic didnt clean out the pipes as you suspect (which caused failures two and three) then it still happened once on the original failure - whats to stop that reoccurring?

I also know from a quick google search on this issue that I am not alone as this is a very common issue. The last day I picked the car up there was a 4.4 X5 and a 3.0 X5 both there for the same reason

It seems the system works fine in the summer but in the winter the condensate freezes and this is what causes problems. I cant see an easy way to stop the condensate but if the pipework was heated (ie 12v heat trace or similar) then this would prevent freezing and the system would function as it does in the summer

[OptimusPriM5]

Ironic you post this as I have been doing some research on this very issue based on the unusual code we have also had as I would like to be a bit proactive myself in replacing some parts but have not read of a PM position when these parts should be changed. The concensus seems to be by 80k but guess that would be based on extreme conditions.

So I have 2 questions for you...you mention the mechanic changed "gaskets"...did he actually change the cover with the diaphragm in it or just the gasket seal around the cover to the manifold? I have heard this diaphragm can rupture causing what you experienced. Second, I have also read that if issue is bad enough the dipstick tube needs to be removed and seals cleaned and as JCL mentions the ancillary lines as well but I could not find that thread relative to the dipstick tube to cite in this response.

[JCL]

Sniffer:

Time to find a new mechanic IMO.

The build up of condensate is problem 1. It is prevented by using the vehicle as it was designed, ie drive it long enough. If that isn't possible then you need to clean it out when the condensate collects. You could also clean the CCV annually.

Collected condensate freezing is a result of problem one. Call it problem 2. You should put your efforts into solving 1, dealing with the root cause, not just focusing on the consequential symptoms. Dealing just with insulation and heat tracing is like putting a piece of black tape over a dashboard warning light. You can't see it anymore, but it is still there and the problem it is indicating is still there. Even if it doesn't freeze, the collection of moisture is a warning sign relating to short trips, accumulated moisture, and resultant accelerated wear.

[Sniffer]

Originally Posted by JCL

Sniffer:

Time to find a new mechanic IMO.

Thats the direction I have taken its going to someone new - I called the previous one today and he now informs me (after assuring me that it was cured on two occasions previously) that there is a fix from the 5 series that would work but it needs a few parts and a LOT of labour (25 hours according to whatever literature he quoted me from) so it`ll cost $4000 minimum to repair and thats assuming he doesnt find anything else that`ll make that figure go up!

I like the guy and I rate him (still) but I cant throw that sort of coin at a 12 year old vehicle

Originally Posted by JCL

build up of condensate is problem 1. It is prevented by using the vehicle as it was designed, ie drive it long enough. If that isn't possible then you need to clean it out when the condensate collects. You could also clean the CCV annually.

Collected condensate freezing is a result of problem one. Call it problem 2. You should put your efforts into solving 1, dealing with the root cause, not just focusing on the consequential symptoms. Dealing just with insulation and heat tracing is like putting a piece of black tape over a dashboard warning light. You can't see it anymore, but it is still there and the problem it is indicating is still there. Even if it doesn't freeze, the collection of moisture is a warning sign relating to short trips, accumulated moisture, and resultant accelerated wear.

I think thats a little unfair - I work approximately 20 miles from home are you suggesting I get a new job or move house further away just so my X5 doesnt explode every time I use it?

I`m pretty sure that if I walked into a BMW sales office tonight and enquired about purchasing a X5 they wouldnt specifically ask me if I do short trips and refuse to sell me it if I did

I see this as more of a design fault which makes it not fit for purpose - I mean why sell a vehicle into a country that routinely gets super cold temperatures if this is going to happen?

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Sniffer

I think thats a little unfair - I work approximately 20 miles from home are you suggesting I get a new job or move house further away just so my X5 doesnt explode every time I use it?

I`m pretty sure that if I walked into a BMW sales office tonight and enquired about purchasing a X5 they wouldnt specifically ask me if I do short trips and refuse to sell me it if I did

I see this as more of a design fault which makes it not fit for purpose - I mean why sell a vehicle into a country that routinely gets super cold temperatures if this is going to happen?

I am not suggesting you move. As I said, if you can't drive the vehicle enough to regularly get it fully to temperature (which may be as simple as a longer drive on a weekend in addition to your commute) then you need to check and clean the CCV system when necessary, ie when it is full of condensate that may freeze.

I am pretty sure a car sales person would sell you a car if you wanted to buy one. I am also pretty sure that the sales rep didn't design the vehicle, and that the engineers that did assumed that the vehicle would be driven enough to boil off the condensate. That is essentially the problem, a gap between the design use case and how many owners (particularly in North America) appear to be using their vehicles.

This doesn't happen just because of very cold temperatures. It happens because of a use pattern, combined with not maintaining the CCV system, followed by very cold temperatures. I think that what BMW is guilty of is not prescribing that the CCV system be inspected and cleaned out as part of the service schedule that they published. However, if the vehicle goes for this many years (from new to now, how ever many that is) I don't think you will be successful in claiming that it isn't fit for use.

[upallnight]

If you not a DIYer a used X with no warranty is not the car for you. Better too buy a later non prestigious model car with a warranty then too buy a used X.

[Tonyfeb14]

I had a Crankcase Ventilation Valve (CVV) problem (oil leak) on my 2003 X5 4.4, that I resolved a while ago (turne out to just be the top hoses), but in the process of researching, talked to friend who's friend is a BMW service manager in Canada. He recommended a heating collar part number 11 61 0 390 846 that is an update. Apparently useful in extreme cold if you are taking short trips and get condensation. When I spoke to the BMW parts manager here in Denver, it was overkill for my problem. Simple replacement of the disintegrated vent hoses under the acoustic engine cover did the trick for me. Just passing this on as that sounds a lot like your problem. The numbers quoted for the repair sound ridicuously high and more in line with an engine rebuild than fixing the oil separator and lines.