BMW X5 CCV

[Sniffer]

Theres no denying it - it appears that this is a fairly common issue and the fix Tony suggested has been discussed before - this post explains it quite well:

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...ed-collar.html

And to a lesser extent here:

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...ns-open-3.html

Thanks again Tony!

[RFaber]

Sniffer, when i lived up north, we used our dogsleds to get around! (or our skidoos!) I feel your pain but short trips kill just about any vehicle! (see previous dog sled reference!!) My X isnt a garage queen, and i suspect that a CVV re and re is in my near future, none of the tan mayo just yet, but it hasnt been changed in any of the service records, and I have a valve cover gasket, and oil filter housing gasket to do soon, so i can keep more oil in the engine!
JCL, how does one go about cleaning the CVV?? what chemicals Dont deteriorate the diaphram? and should i pull out the dipstick tube and clean it too??? what is the annual servicing you speak of??

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Sniffer

I think thats a little unfair - I work approximately 20 miles from home are you suggesting I get a new job or move house further away just so my X5 doesnt explode every time I use it?

I`m pretty sure that if I walked into a BMW sales office tonight and enquired about purchasing a X5 they wouldnt specifically ask me if I do short trips and refuse to sell me it if I did

I see this as more of a design fault which makes it not fit for purpose - I mean why sell a vehicle into a country that routinely gets super cold temperatures if this is going to happen?

I am not suggesting you move. As I said, if you can't drive the vehicle enough to regularly get it fully to temperature (which may be as simple as a longer drive on a weekend in addition to your commute) then you need to check and clean the CCV system when necessary, ie when it is full of condensate that may freeze.

I am pretty sure a car sales person would sell you a car if you wanted to buy one. I am also pretty sure that the sales rep didn't design the vehicle, and that the engineers that did assumed that the vehicle would be driven enough to boil off the condensate. That is essentially the problem, a gap between the design use case and how many owners (particularly in North America) appear to be using their vehicles.

This doesn't happen just because of very cold temperatures. It happens because of a use pattern, combined with not maintaining the CCV system, followed by very cold temperatures. I think that what BMW is guilty of is not prescribing that the CCV system be inspected and cleaned out as part of the service schedule that they published. However, if the vehicle goes for this many years (from new to now, how ever many that is) I don't think you will be successful in claiming that it isn't fit for use.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by RFaber

JCL, how does one go about cleaning the CVV?? what chemicals Dont deteriorate the diaphram? and should i pull out the dipstick tube and clean it too??? what is the annual servicing you speak of??

Each of the CCV systems is slightly different by engine model and year. Some models had a kit available from BMW with a replacement diaphragm as a service part.

I would inspect all of the lines, and replace any that are soft. The valve is straightforward to replace. The engine valve cover could be removed and cleaned of any condensate. I wouldn't replace the dip stick tube, but rather check that it isn't plugged.

I wouldn't use any harsh chemicals. The system normally sees oil mist, so a solvent or diesel wouldn't be any harder on it than its normal environment. I would check the system, and then look at it the following year and see if there was any buildup (if the vehicle had the same sort of use that year). If there wasn't any, I would go several more years before checking it again. If it was plugged, I would check it more often.

PCV valves used to be a regularly replaced item at an annual tune up, back in the day. This system is just a complicated PCV valve.

[ProfessorX5]

I sure hate where they put it.

[Ricky Bobby]

Originally Posted by JCL

PCV valves used to be a regularly replaced item at an annual tune up, back in the day. This system is just a complicated PCV valve.

I'm sure most people forget this the most, and I'm glad you brought it up Jeff. However, the PCV valves replaced annually on domestic vehicles, etc is about a 5 dollar part and 10 mins of work to do so.

The CCV is definitely more complicated with its placement etc on the E53, but I still think it should be a routine maintenance item, as hoses might leak, crack etc with age, and any dried up gunk or buildup in the CCV should be cleaned out, one could clean the CCV and hoses annually, as you mentioned, but since its a tedious process, I don't think many would do it.

Personally, I am thinking about doing the CCV and hoses as a preventative maintenance interval. I have 71,000 miles now, perhaps by 75k I will replace it and the hoses, as they are 10 years old, and I would probably do it in another 75k as an interval.

I drive my X mostly highway and avoid short stop/starts and trips in the winter time, so I have not had problems with condensate to note in my 2 years of ownership. Not sure if the PO ever had an issue before me, but I do note that the CCV hose I can see, is not insulated cold climate version, so I assume the system is original.

[flatlander]

There is usually quite a few CCV and Oil Separator problems in the winters for the 8 cylinder M52 models. I've had the problem before twice in one winter.

The first time I had the system freeze up, I had the Oil Separator replaced. Then a few weeks later there was another freeze up and oil loss, so I had to look into it further. It was then I discovered that there are more parts and oil passages that must be considered when addressing this problem. The rear diaphram on the intake manifold is the CCV diaphram and it can fail and freeze. There are several hoses and metal tubes which must be cleaned out or replaced since oil mist passes through them and it may freeze.

The heated wrap may also be purchased. It is installed around the two vent rubber hoses to keep them from freezing. This kit was quoted to me at around $800 from the local BMW shop. I did not buy it.

There is also an alternative oil dipstick tube which was developed to address possible freezing in the dipstick tube. I did not purchase this either, as I had no condensation in the dipstick tube.

I've attached a couple of diagrams which show the primary parts and passages that are involved in this system working properly.

I hope this helps. Even though I do this annual maintenance, I tend not to drive my E53 in the coldest part of the winter just to avoid the possibility that the system freezes up. The consequences of this system freezing up are too much to deal with, so I drive my other car in the coldest of the winter.

[Tonyfeb14]

Hope that is it. Good luck. BTW, IPA

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby

I drive my X mostly highway and avoid short stop/starts and trips in the winter time, so I have not had problems with condensate to note in my 2 years of ownership.

The condensate isn't a cold weather issue, it can form all year in most climates. It is just that it freezes in the winter. If it freezes when parked, it doesn't matter how long your drive is, it can cause problems before it thaws out.

Just pointing out that the focus on the cold is only relevant to dealing with the symptoms of the condensate forming, not the formation of it.

I do recall PCV valves costing around $5. Sparkplugs used to cost the same. If I add up the maintenance cost for 100,000 km with each of my last four BMWs, it is much lower than I used to spend on maintenance parts in older vehicles.

[Sniffer]

So Ive been to two well different local BMW specialist and both have told me that the replacement heated kit would not cure my problems - it is simply insufficient for the extremes of temperature that we see here

Interestingly both have advised that a different CCV system be fitted - one mentioned that this system is from the 5 series and it takes away all the external parts which are prone to freezing up and places them internally where they are better protected

This is a fairly intensive task it seems - both have quoted figures in the region of $4K for this including parts and labour - it was quite the shock

So as it stands these are my options:

Spend a relatively small amount of cash (say $1000) and repair the damage but leave it as standard - the problem will almost certainly reappear IMO (I know others may disagree with this statement but if the last month has taught me anything its this), I suppose I could trade it for something else before this happens

Spend big cash (around $4K) and fit all the internal running gear which I think will make it winter proof - this is however a lot of cash for a car that isn't worth a lot of cash - is it worth it?

Leave the car as it is and sell it for parts (not sure I could be bothered with the hassle)

I should also mention that the mechanic suggested he may be able to lay his hands on a low mileage motor (mine is pretty high mileage - around 125,000) which could then be fitted with the internal CCV running gear much easier before swapping the motors and, I`m guessing selling my original motor to claw back some cash

Thoughts?