Anyone removed clutch fan and replaced with electric?

[jcp240z]

One thing to realize is that while no "gain" is realized a mechanical fan with viscous clutch has a constant parasitic drag on the engine under all conditions, even when cold. With an electric fan the only drag is when conditions require it.

[Helihover]

I wrote that wrong. Yes the type bench test your referring to would provide hp numbers.

[m5james]

- I removed the fan clutch from my E34 M5 and it feels that it rev's quicker.
- I removed the fan clutch from my E38 740iL and it feels that it rev's quicker.
- I removed the automatic transmission and heavy torque converter in exchange for a single mass lightweight flywheels and it definitely rev's quicker, just like PropellerHead has mentioned.
- I installed a single mass flywheel onto my mothers E36 328ci and it definitely rev's quicker, just like PropellerHead has mentioned.
- I removed the fan clutch from my Harley Davidson F150 and it feels that it rev's quicker.

Parasitic loss is parasitic loss, whether it's removed from the accessories on the front of the engine (fan clutch, power steering, A/C, etc), lighter flywheels, lighter wheels, etc. All have been proven over the years that lighter makes things spin easier and go faster with less things trying to slow it down, which is freeing up HP more than adding. I've given the analogy to women when trying to explain why and used a 55 gallon drum as my example. Which is easier to roll up a hill, one that's empty or one that's full? Anything to lighten the load, the better. The alternator is going to be spinning regardless, ALL the fans I've installed we're wired to a controller that's progressive, so it's not like they're running full speed all the time vs the mechanical, that even though it disengages, my X5 still sounds like an airplane taking off every time I drive away from a light, which is robbing my ability to spin the drum faster and easier.

Trader4, go take 20min to remove your fan clutch assembly and if it doesn't fell that it revs faster (mind you the affect will be less on the I6 vs a V8), then there's going to be no convincing you. We're going to do it regardless, so is all this arguing in an attempt to talk us out of it or just to hear you're right? Is it easier to throw in a fan clutch vs an electronic fan, sensors, a controller through the DME, etc...yes, which is likely why they do it.

[PropellerHead]

Originally Posted by trader4

3 - If there were a noticeable effect, every car manufacturer would have converted to electric fans decades ago, because they are desperate to meet
CAFE standards, improve mileage, sell cars. Such an opportunity would be low hanging fruit. They're spending billions, squeezing ounces out of parts for example, substituting plastic everywhere, but no one thought until relatively recently, to go after the fan, that's an easy target? Actually, now that I think about it, one place they did convert to plastic was the mechanical fan.

We addressed this already. They didn't have a *need* to do anything from 1990 until 2011. Why would they do anything if they didn't have to?

It appears that you simply wish to remain skeptical and that's fine. It's your world after all. We have people here who have done this and their result has been discussed.

Originally Posted by trader4

Your example of adding 500 lbs of weight is not relevant, because in that example, the HP available at the wheels has not changed.

Um, yes it is. It's not simply irrelevant bc you are unable to wrap your head around the work a motor has to do to get something moving. You go right to weight of a fan which demonstrates clearly that you're missing the point of parasitic loss and increased efficiency on the transfer of power.

You want your mind blown a little more? About 14 years ago, I removed the (non-working) A/C compressor from my M10 that I've driven for 26 years. Result? Much better revving to redline. Easier movement of the engine up and down the range. Think that showed up at the rear wheels? Why? Because the almighty dyno is the end all be all of power efficiency?

Originally Posted by trader4

Again, I thought I made it clear. I'm not saying removing parasitic losses increases the HP of the engine. It increases the HP available to move the car. Instead of the HP going to the fan, it's available to move the car. And if you've taken off a parasitic loss, ie the fan, and the car indeed accelerates faster, the only way that's possible is if more HP is being delivered to the wheels. It's physics 101.

No, it's not. Did you stop reading so that you could breathlessly enter a nonsensical reply? Try to get through the whole thing without holding your breath, stomping your feet or crossing your arms.

You're not thinking about this the right way despite our best effort. You think you understand this and cite physics that you clearly do not understand as your reason.

(Read closely, this is the point) The engine did not deliver any more HP to the wheels than it did before. ZERO HP is made available. It is made more easily. Uphill vs down, friction vs less, simple vs the way you're making this.

I think it's great that you wish to remain skeptical, but I do not think that anyone's experience here is going to change your mind. Why? Well, we've issued our experiences here for you. You choose to speak of physics but are able to apply only simple math.

[PropellerHead]

Originally Posted by trader4

Who says auto makers didn't have a need to do anything that would make a noticeable difference in performance from 1990 until 2011? Clearly there have been CAFE standards and auto makers have been targeting everything and anything that can help meet those, increase mileage and sell cars. Yet were supposed to believe that auto makers the world over ignored easy, low hanging fruit, like the fan, where you can allegedly actually see and feel a difference, for 25 years?

I think it's cute that you think automakers are in the business to make the most efficient use of the most possible power every time. It's even cuter that you think they'd do this if they weren't forced to by the EPA. Even when faced with the reality that BMW designed and stuck with the same fan clutch for nearly 20 years, changing it only when they were forced to do so by increased CAFE standards (in 2004, 5, 6 and 11), you still somehow put 2 and 2 together to get 5. Is that another brand of 'simple physics' or is it what we used to call 'new math'?

Originally Posted by trader4

And as I've said, googling you will find folks on both sides of this, some reporting that they notice something, some that say they don't notice anything.

I don't *need* to google. I have my experience. That flies directly in the face of your 'skepticism' which is not based on anything as real as experience. You present less to move this discussion forward than anyone here, having neither the experience nor the desire, nor the basic understanding needed to do anything useful...

Except Google, which is useless.

You've shown here that some 'independent lab' experiment is the only thing that will convince you. Well, now we know. You will not be convinced.

And we can move forward without you.

---------------------

I call a truce: No more feeding those whose hunger is not satisfied by food.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

So, you're actually doubling down on the statement that automakers had no need to try to squeeze more performance, more mileage out of cars for
the last 25 years? That's pretty incredible. CAFE just showed up in 2011?

Sorry that you find google useless. I use it all the time. And if you google you'll find more information from a variety of sources on the subject. That's how people who want to learn, learn.

As to not moving the discussion forward, it depends on what your goal is. If it's just to rip out the fan and replace it because you want to do it without any regard to questioning if it's really going to result in a noticeable performance increase, I plead guilty. If you want to approach it from the standpoint of asking the simple question of how much power are you talking about saving, before you embark, then I say I have moved it forward, because no one has any data at all that suggests that fan consumes enough HP that you're going to notice the difference in performance of the vehicle.

And the discussion has uncovered some interesting theories, like the poster who says you can feel a difference in performance, but it won't show up in performance numbers of the car. That's some very interesting science.

Another example of your fantasy world is your claim that those that want to learn use Google. I hope this doesn't depress you but there is no litmus test for internet accuracy.

You have moved nothing forward. The best you can claim is you added pages with the same song same verse obstinate junk. Congratulations!

[bugbyte]

Hey Guys,

We should just ignore Trader4 and continue on with the project. Let not waste time anymore and get to the result.

[PropellerHead]

[Ricky Bobby]

"^^ Since Prop has actually done the modification I think I would trust his experience in this. Makes perfect sense, just like taking 500 lbs off of our E53, or switching to lightweight forged 18's instead of heavy boat anchor 20's. The car would "feel faster" but not make any more hp at the dyno.

[Helihover]

Brian can you just go get a few before and after dyno runs done?

That would prove a few things. Although not the most accurate of test it would eliminate the "feel" topic.