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  #191  
Old 07-07-2015, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
One more time... my first post responding in here post #170... 7hp difference after removing parasitic fan.
And I'll point out additional real life tests and data in my posts #168, 181 & 184 as a degreed automotive engineer from General Motors Institute with ten years experience at GM and ten more years with Zexel & Behr Climate Control Systems, both being automotive and truck HVAC system suppliers. Electric window/attic fans, and even furnace blowers, do not operate in the same environment as an engine cooling fan. The only similarity is that they have blades and they move air.

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  #192  
Old 07-08-2015, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PropellerHead View Post
In 4...3...2...1... queue the
OMG! He really did it! Took less than 30 mins!
Quote:
Originally Posted by trader4 View Post
So, I really don't see what the problem is.
Where *is* that article?

For anyone who'd like some help to quickly identify what is going on and what will eventually happen in these cases, I offer these guidelines:

Great article:
Quote:
They’re the scourge of the Internet, as common as cockroaches and even harder to exterminate. They’re Internet trolls, and they live to make the rest of us miserable.

The good news? Academics at Stanford and Cornell believe they’ve found a way to quickly identify trolls. The researchers examined comments at three popular, heavily moderated Web sites – CNN, IGN, and Breitbart – to determine characteristics that are common among users who were eventually banned due to the vile things they said. The idea is to come up with an automated method for banishing trolls so the rest of us can have a civil conversation for a change.

Their study, titled “Antisocial Behavior in Online Discussion Communities,” is filled with charts, acronyms, and academic-speak. So we took the trouble of translating its key findings into 8 simple rules you can use to identify whether you are a troll.

Note: The study uses the terms Future Banned Users – for people whose noxious behavior eventually lead to their being banished – and Non Banned Users (everyone else). For clarity, we’ve substituted the terms “troll” and “nontroll.” You’re welcome.

How do you know if you’re an Internet troll?

1. You post all the friggin time.

Per the study: Trolls “tend to post more frequently than average users (prior to getting banned): on CNN, a typical [troll] makes 264 posts, but an average user makes only 22 posts.”

Translation: Your keyboard runneth over. Please stop.

2. But almost never on topic.

“We find that the average text similarity of posts written by [trolls] is significantly lower than that of [nontrolls]…. suggesting that [trolls] make less of an effort to integrate or stay on-topic.”

Translation: Every discussion, no matter how innocuous, is an opportunity to launch into a paranoid rant about Obama, Bush, the 9/11 commission, the alleged moon landing, the Holocaust, Benghazi, the World Bank, the Bermuda Triangle, or the Infield Fly Rule.


3. You get way more replies than average.

Trolls “receive more replies than average users, suggesting that they might be successful in luring others into fruitless, time-consuming discussions.”

Translation: You have no life.

4. You’re quasi-literate.

“We measure each post with respect to several readability tests, including the Automated Readability Index (ARI), which are designed to gauge how understandable a piece of text is. While posts written by [trolls] and [nontrolls] have similar word counts, those written by [trolls] have a higher ARI, and thus appear to be less readable than those written by [nontrolls].”

Translation: Ewe dun no how too rat gud, dew ewe?

5. You’re a $@#&%!! potty mouth.

“[Trolls] are less likely to use positive words … are also more likely to swear or use less tentative or conciliatory language.”

Translation: You probably shouldn’t kiss your momma with that mouth…. or anyone else.

6. Your comments get worse over time.

“Not only do [trolls] enter a community writing worse posts than [nontrolls], but the quality of their posts also worsens more over time.”

Translation: You enter the discussion as an idiot; you leave it a drooling imbecile.


7. And get deleted more often.

“On average, the deletion rate of a [troll’s] posts tends to increase over their life in a community. In contrast, the deletion rate for [nontrolls] remains relatively constant…. Posts written later in a [troll’s] life are more likely to be deleted, regardless of whether they are actually worse.”

Translation: We’re all effin’ tired of your BS.

8. But at least you’re consistent.

“We can predict with over 80% [confidence] whether a user will be subsequently banned. In fact, we only need to observe 5 to 10 user’s posts before a classifier is able to make a reliable prediction. Further, crossdomain classification performance remains high, suggesting that the features indicative of antisocial behavior that we discover are not community-specific.”

Translation: If you’re a jackass here, you’re probably a jackass everywhere, and more likely to be banned. But not to worry: We’re sure you’ll find another virtual bridge to lurk under.
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  #193  
Old 07-08-2015, 12:09 PM
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Trader4--I agree with you---You don't see what the problem is because you are the problem. It is a choice you make each time you make a post. In this case you choose to be destructive rather than constructive. When you make a statement with as I see it, or in my world, I don't see how-- it clearly is an opinion rather than a statement of fact. When that is the case there is no reason to be defensive when someone disagrees and to relentlessly defend your opinion. You see constructive difference of opinions that are handled peaceably all the time--Threads such as the best oil to use or should I change my transmission fluid.

In this case you are challenging 50 years of racers removing stock fans in favor of aftermarket fans. You are challenging decades of eliminating clutch fans in favor of electric fans. All for the sole purpose to have the use of the horsepower that was taken to run the fan they removed. The recovered HP has always been from 4 to near 20HP depending on the application. For my particular application the Flex-A-Lite techs estimated the recovered HP would be 7-10HP saying they try to be conservative and cautioned that dyno results vary by dyno as do back to back pulls and pulls at a later date.

I think that for mild mannered Kent daily driving the change is a subjective value equation. IMO, if Kent's clutch fan died and the he intended to keep the vehicle for a year or more and is a DIYer it is worth consideration, especially if Kent is Located in a long winter or hot summer climate.

You now have another choice which is how you respond to this post. You can be constructive or destructive, you can peacefully contribute or you can be defensive. You have done both in other threads so I know it is a conscious choice you make. I make the same choice. I'm sure by now members know I challenge posts that I view as uncalled for especially those involving new members. And, would like me to drop continued responses long before I do. I am well aware of that.

You are not singled out by me or anyone else when you choose to be peaceably constructive. You will always be challenged or called out when you are not. The primary reason is the person wanting help expects posts to be helpful and on topic. The topic of my thread is-- has anyone removed the clutch fan and replaced it with an electric fan. I had no question in my mind that it will be worthwhile I was merely interested in what they did and why. I have made the switch many many times over the years and each time it was a great HP gain per dollar spent investment. The Dinan mods delivered 29HP. The cost was several thousand dollars. The electric fan and controller cost was about $400.

The reason is that 10HP in round numbers equates to a .1 improvement in elapsed quarter mile time or one car length.
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Last edited by bcredliner; 07-08-2015 at 12:14 PM.
  #194  
Old 07-08-2015, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trader4 View Post
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  #195  
Old 07-08-2015, 11:17 PM
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I can find an endorsement to either side of almost any question. You are grasping at straws rather than accepting overwhelming evidence that you are incorrect. You are making a fool of yourself by continuing to ignore overwhelming input contrary to your position. You are ignoring 50 years of racers making this change as a great value to have more horsepower available to them. The range based on the application has been a conservative 4-20HP benefit. Per your article, CarCraft was saying it is as much as 30HP. I didn't notice the date of this article but I would like to read the CarCraft article I may be leaving HP on the table.

It is not about having no fan all of the time. It is having no fan when you need all the horsepower available. Keep in mind this is only about racing, has nothing to do with daily driving. In racing the engine is almost always in the upper RPM ranges, significantly more than 3500 RPMs and the electric fan will not be running. In addition, I shift at 6,500 RPMs. That means if we accept the article as gospel than we have to accept the horsepower used will increase significantly more that 5HP. My purpose for installing an electric fan has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH DAILY DRIVING. That has been crystal clear from the first post. Daily driving conclusions associated with the performance of an electric fan are clutter, useless, not applicable.

Non technical people debate the worth of electric fans, have for many years. You article appears to be a non-tech person as no credentials are included. While he mentions engine oil and water temp was the same. What about air temp and humidity and the test were without forced air equal to the speed associated with the engine RPM. If I presented this 'test' to you as fact I would expect these same responses. Doesn't take much common sense to see your article is full of holes and not scientific.

If you can't objectively consider input contrary to as you see it and adjust your as you see it, I suggest you stop posting. You are being self destructive, losing all credibility here. If you see this as winning or losing then I suggest you evaluate if you can win and how much support you have here for ---how you see it. Cut your losses--at this point I don't think there is anything you can do or say that will garner you a win.

There are no credentials for the person conducting the tests and the fans were rescued from parts laying around, no verification of the condition. Further, if you read past the test information he says the clutch fan test was invalid because the engine was not up to operating temperature. And, you are asking me to accept these findings over what Carcraft printed and sold copies to hundreds of thousand of readers. We have no idea if the clutch fan is anything like a BMW clutch fan. Are you saying this individual is more credible than CarCraft Magazine and 50 years of serious racers? Do you really think you know more then all that evidence to the contrary.
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Last edited by bcredliner; 07-08-2015 at 11:38 PM.
  #196  
Old 07-09-2015, 12:31 AM
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Don't do it redliner... lol... don't get sucked back down the rabbit hole.

As you say, he's lost all credibility here... so it really matters not what he posts. But what we respond with. Just ignore the troll. Like you, I've seen some helpful posts from Trader but in this particular case... he has made up his mind about this subject and will not falter from it. He will ignore 100 pieces of evidence contradicting his position if he can find 1 piece that supports it. And even in that case he is cherry picking parts of it. Just let it go... you can't talk to a deaf man (or woman, I'm not sexist.) Although the stubborn nature of the poster might be more easily explained if it were a woman... holy crap maybe I AM sexist. JK Ahhhh Sailor Jerry you are wonderful.
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  #197  
Old 07-09-2015, 07:41 AM
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Interesting topic.

Besides the topic, you guys should look at trader and your conversation from a different perspective. He's asking questions you guys can't answer. I'm not sure anyone could answer them. There is no way to dyno a car as it is moving down the freeway.

I asked the same question at the beginning. Power required for work is power period. Some of these electrics fans move more air than the stock ones do, so how does it compute? I wish I new.

Anyways, here's the test I want to see, and BC your in the perfect spot depending on how accurate your aftermarket temp sensor is. Set the fan to come on, say 3-5* above the normal running temp which is what? That depends on where your sensor is. I would like to see if the fan would ever come on. If it didn't, which it shouldn't,you would have the best of both worlds!
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  #198  
Old 07-09-2015, 09:37 AM
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Ah the ignore list is so nice. Its like sweet serenity, you guys should try it. I could care less if he talks shit about me and I can't see it.
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  #199  
Old 07-09-2015, 03:40 PM
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I have decided to ask the administrator to delete this thread. It is useless after Page 7 when Trader4 joined. I have called out Trader4 in the past. Lately he seeks out my posts, cluttering them up with his well earned troll trademark. I kept responding until everyone following the thread would see his true colors. It's way past that but I enjoy reading how he total disregards input and misinterprets almost everything he reads. I don't what his problem is but in my view he is extremely sick and I am very happy I don't live near him.
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  #200  
Old 07-09-2015, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
I have decided to ask the administrator to delete this thread. It is useless after Page 7 when Trader4 joined. I have called out Trader4 in the past. Lately he seeks out my posts, cluttering them up with his well earned troll trademark. I kept responding until everyone following the thread would see his true colors. It's way past that but I enjoy reading how he total disregards input and misinterprets almost everything he reads. I don't what his problem is but in my view he is extremely sick and I am very happy I don't live near him.
I agree on all points... except deleting the thread. Talking to people like Trader can be extremely frustrating, as evidenced by this thread, and even more so in person. LOL but in person at least you can walk away I guess.

The mod/admin should delete all posts by Trader... and all of those directly responding to him by myself, you, and others. Clean up the thread so it can once again be a useful collection of info/advice for those looking to possibly make the switch to electric cooling fan.
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2005 X5 4.4i Build 04/05 Maintenance/Build Log
Nav, Pano, Sport (Purchased 06/14 w/ 109,000 miles) (Sold 8/15 w/121,000 miles)


2006 X5 4.8is Build 11/05 Maintenance/Build Log
Nav, DSP, Pano, Running Boards, OEM Tow Hitch, Cold Weather Pckg (Purchased 08/15 w/ 90,500 miles)

2010 X5 35d Build 02/10
Nav, HiFi, 6 DVD, Sports Pckg, Cold Weather Pckg, HUD, CAS, Running Boards, Leather Dash, PDC, Pano (Purchased 03/17 w/ 136,120 miles)
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