Anyone removed clutch fan and replaced with electric?

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

I see. The useful, well documented fan test that I cited, with a link to the
actual test setup, pics of it, complete power graphs, should be banned because it disagrees with what some of you want to believe and insist
we all have to believe. Amazing, absolutely amazing. You're actually
afraid that someone may see it, look at the data, and learn from it.

I don't see that post as useful either. It is a test done by somebody who dug fans out of the trash. And, if you read on he states the clutch fan numbers are wrong because the engine was not at normal operating temperature. The data is obviously unreliable. And since he data does not register to 6500 RPMs the data is incomplete. Finally, since the clutch fan is not a BMW clutch fan there is no way to know if the numbers are applicable to my application. Correct, I don't want anyone to look at your data. It is just another example of you grasping at straws and thinking we are as ill informed and lacking any common sense as you have been displaying since page 7.

[bcredliner]

Trader4
We are all born ignorant. There are those of us that are not open to input that become stupid.

You continue to hold onto a ridiculous conglomeration of junk set up with vice grips and chain as 'proof'. That is not only stupid but idiotic.
You ignore the paragraph below that acknowledges that the 'tester' didn't even understand how a clutch fan operates.

You ignore the input of a countless number of posts of personal experience and decades of racers using electric fans. Flex-A-Lite sells all types of fans, including clutch fans, they have no bias. You ignore the input that I spoke to tech at Flex-A-Lite about my particular application and call them salespeople. You conclusion is that all this evidence to the contrary is false and you are the smart one---ignoring the input and continuing to defend your--as you see it.

You are not aware of, or ignore the input that there are many mfgs of electric fans and there have been for 50 years indicating you might not be smarter than a 5th. grader.

You ignore the input that your initial--as I see it--post is an entirely flawed invalid conclusion. You ignore the input that your just might be wrong since no one agrees with you. You ignore any and all input and continue to make a fool of yourself by defensively attempting to support your premise.

Here is that paragraph I referenced in previous posts:

"I have to admit I didn't know that clutch fans were activated by heat from the radiator; I thought it was just internally generated heat. If that is the case, then the clutch fan test is probably not valid, because the radiator wasn't hot. I would assume that the clutch fan would do worse than my results indicate with a hot radiator in front of it. I'm still not seeing a big horsepower loss though, because the fixed blade steel fan did not show a major decrease in power, and the blades look to be about the same as the clutch fan blades, although there are only five of them."

I can't wait to read another post where you ignore input and continue to defend stupidity.

[crystalworks]

Trader... what this comes down to, is that you've missed redliner's entire point in starting this thread. There are measurable benefits (by your own admission) to switching to an electric fan. Redliner was asking for info from those who have made the switch about potential gains in hp (and by relation mpg).

Fact is that you will see hp and mpg gains of varying degrees based on engine temp, speed, conditions, etc. There are just too many variables to come up with a number for every application. That's why you see claims of 3hp-30hp. Also fact is anytime the electric fan is off you will have a gain in HP and MPG because even full slip on a clutch fan doesn't leave you with 0hp drain from the engine.

I mean we have an auto engineer in here, with experience testing the exact question being posed by the OP, stating just what I said above... I wouldn't argue with someone whose career was in the industry. But that's just me.

And just because I seem to afflicted with the same need to try to enlighten the misguided... you say your X5 doesn't spend much time above 3500rpm? I assume you drive a 3.0 because I think all the 4.4i's were electric. Our M54 3.0 in my wife's X3 spends a fair amount of it's time above 3500rpm because it has to haul around a metric ton of weight. That's compounded by the X5's weight. I couldn't imagine trying to drive a 3.0 without being above 3500RPM at least 25% of the time. Hell, my 4.4i spends at least that amount of time over 3500RPM if I am not doing a lot of highway driving. And we drive VERY conservatively, just ask Liberty Mutual... they had us on their OBD2 monitoring for 90 days and we got a nice discount afterwards.

I am not sure what you are hoping to get out of continuing to post in this thread excepting for a few possible reasons. 1. You are TRYING to get the thread deleted entirely. 2. You really are a troll and enjoy the attention of ignoring everyone else's opinion and real world experience on this subject. 3. You are really that conceited and believe you are smarter than the collective consensus of everyone else who has posted in the thread, including an automotive engineer. 4. Or lastly, you are just not smart enough to grasp what has been discussed.

I don't know which of the above is applicable (I'm leaning towards a combo of 1 and 2 though) but you have said your piece. You have posted your "proof." You can let others read it and judge for themselves now and go on about your business.

And again, out of morbid curiosity, why are your posts in those funky formatted paragraphs? Do you post on a 15" 4:3 monitor or something?

[bcredliner]

Trader4, since I am going to ask this thread be deleted I decided prior to doing so I would be blunt and keep it simple for you until I do.

Somewhere along the line you did not accept the input that 'complete' and documented has nothing to do with accurate.

Somewhere along the line you ignored that leaders in a market like Flex-a-lite, who depend on the performance minded, must sell products that meet or exceed customer expectations or they go away.

Somewhere along the line you ignored input that the HP benefit of an electric fan varies by each particular application. You have ignored input that HP results not only vary by application but also by the parameters of measurement. If you want to know the additional HP available by an application the conservative answer will come from Company techs. They are well aware, racers measure the results of performance enhancements.

The problem since your initial post is you have ignored my reason for changing to an electric fan. The ONLY reason I made the change is for improved performance. If is commonly understood that performance, meaning acceleration in my case, the time it takes from point A to point B, is only a registered when the gas pedal is on the floor. If you accepted input you wouldn't be posting about daily driving. The results at 3,500 RPM or 5,500, especially of a bogus test mean nothing. In my particular application, once the tach passes 3,500 in first gear it won't be at that low of RPMs until I let off the gas. In addition, my measurement of gain is to 6,500 not 5,500 PRMs. Somewhere along the line you ignored input that when numbers are different the end result can be different so the correct numbers need to be tested for verification.

Somewhere along the line you ignored input that it is clearly a wilda%$ guess that old or junk parts perform worse or better than new parts. It is also an assumption that the BMW clutch fan performs better or worse than old junk technology. Yes, it was an old fixed fan. You assume it had more drag than a current fixed fan. Somewhere along you ignored input that you can't assume you have to verify differences.

You have just ignored clear input that the individual doing the test stated he did not understand the way a clutch fan worked so the clutch fan numbers were wrong. Somewhere along the line of your Physics education you ignored that if the equation does not prove the assumption the assumption is bogus.

"I have to admit I didn't know that clutch fans were activated by heat from the radiator; I thought it was just internally generated heat. If that is the case, then the clutch fan test is probably not valid, because the radiator wasn't hot. I would assume that the clutch fan would do worse than my results indicate with a hot radiator in front of it. I'm still not seeing a big horsepower loss though, because the fixed blade steel fan did not show a major decrease in power, and the blades look to be about the same as the clutch fan blades, although there are only five of them."


We are ignorant until we embrace input. If that is our character we become stupid. Clearly you don't have the capacity to embrace input.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

"Somewhere along the line you did not accept the input that 'complete' and documented has nothing to do with accurate"

I never claimed it was 100% accurate, only that it was the most complete
test setup, with actual pics of it and actual dyno curves of many fans.
It looks like valid data can in fact be extracted from it.
And I find it incredible that you openly accept and don't question the words
of an electric fan salesman, while you completely reject an actual test.

If the clutch fan data is wrong, what we are comparing an electric fan to, there is no data to extract

"Somewhere along the line you ignored that leaders in a market like Flex-a-lite, who depend on the performance minded, must sell products that meet or exceed customer expectations or they go away."

I don't reject that at all. That they satisfied you and how it actually
performs for a typical driver, is it worth it for them, etc, are
different things.

This thread is only about performance, time it takes to get from point a to point B, I think I mentioned that before if I'm not mistaken.

"Somewhere along the line you ignored input that the HP benefit of an electric fan varies by each particular application"

Never said any such thing.
Of course it was not in those exact words


" If you want to know the additional HP available by an application the conservative answer will come from Company techs. They are well aware, racers measure the results of performance enhancements."

Then they should have pics of the test setup they used, the dyno
graphs, etc. Still waiting for those

Dyno results vary by Dyno, temp, humidity, how much air they blow into the radiator. They also vary by each individual application. Flex-A-Lite is wise not to print any results due to liability.
"Somewhere along the line you ignored input that it is clearly a wilda%$ guess that old or junk parts perform worse or better than new parts. It is also an assumption that the BMW clutch fan performs better or worse than old junk technology."

I would say it's a reasonable assumption that 40 year old junk
parts generally perform worse than brand new, modern design
ones. That's been my experience.

Key word is assumption and in my experience--paraphrased---I don't know but it sounds good

"You have just ignored clear input that the individual doing the test stated he did not understand the way a clutch fan worked "

Haven't ignored it at all. I said even with the old steel fixed fan, the
test graph showed no measurable difference in power below 3500
versus *no fan* at alland that a hydraulic clutch fan is clearly going
to do better than that. That's why they went to the more complicated
and costly hydraulic clutches to begin with.

It doesn't matter what the report says about anything it bogus. If one part is inaccurate the whole study is bogus, even relative differences. The test parameters are not consistent and it is not a professional study. Being the only dyno information contributed does not make it right.

And finally, just last year you said:

"I am only guessing it increases HP on and X5."

Certainly there was a time that I did not know how much horsepower would be available. It was not until I spoke with techs about my particular application, did some research and spoke with some of guys in the BMW club that I am in that I felt comfortable posting and estimated range.

So, seems like it's OK for you to question what's going on, but when
I do it and actually provide a relevant test setup, you have a problem
with that. And it was the *only* well documented test setup that anyone
has posted.
Well documented doesn't mean squat. It's a redneck engineering cobbled together, damned if I know but I'm a guessn' somebody out there is gonna claim it is the gospel. yuk yuk

And again, I note that while calling for censorship and calling
me a troll, you're the one that continues to call me stupid, ignorant,
etc. I've refrained from doing that to you or anyone else.

I'm not calling for censorship I'm going to ask Admin to delete the tread---all post go away. As far as calling you stupid, I was giving you credit at that.

[edogg]

I've been reading this thread, not because I have anything to add or am really interested in swapping my mechanical fan with an electric fan (though I understand the benefits of doing so).

At some point, the bigger person just needs to shake their head and walk away. And this springs to mind:



ETA: I'm also curious as to Trader4's strange line breaks...it's like he's hitting enter rather than letting the forum software wrap the lines automatically.

[bcredliner]

I agree with you. Somebody has to be the bigger person and stop this. I am fine if Trader4 wants to be that person, simply delighted. We have invited him to go away several times.

It is everyone's choice to or not to read posts. That's the only reason I haven't asked that the thread be deleted some time ago. I am very sensitive to the light I am putting myself in. However, I started this thread and I take exception to someone trashing it up. In the case of Trader4 I called him out on another thread where he was doing the same thing to someone else so he jumped to my thread to renew his stupid claims.

This thread was doomed when Trader4 arrogantly posted BMW owners are strange and if anyone thinks an electric fan is worthwhile they have their head up their a$# (paraphrased) on page 7. It was off topic and he has been off topic ever since.

I'l let my last counter to Trader4 sit until tomorrow and then ask the Admin to delete the thread. That's too bad, it is worthwhile to be aware of the benefits of an electric fan for performance and even daily driving, especially if you need to replace the clutch fan.

[bcredliner]

What do you think?

Do you think it would be worthwhile if I prepared a DIY including why I made the change and the updates I posted?

I have asked the Admin to delete this thread. Do you think that is the best solution due to how difficult it would be to read through the clutter?

Another option would be to delete the this thread and start a new thread with an objective summary of what I did and where anyone could add what they would like and no one would respond to differences of opinion.

What do you think is the best option(s)?

[bcredliner]

About a year ago I decided to remove the clutch fan and replace it with an electric fan. The following summarizes why I made the change, what I did and the results:

Whether or not the removal of the clutch fan in favor of any aftermarket fan is beneficial has been debated for years and I wouldn't expect the debate to stop anytime soon. It is similar to a debate on whether or not transmission fluid should ever be changed on an E53. Obviously, I believe there are worthwhile benefits of an electric fan.

IMO, for daily driving, there can be benefits such as improved mileage, less stress on the water pump bearings, better cooling at low RPMs, engine reaching operating temp faster, and controlling radiator heat after the engine is off. Performance gains are transferable to a lessor degree since daily driving is not often at the high end of engine RPM range where electric fan performance gains are at their peak.

There are so many variables in daily driving such as temp, humidity, terrain, varying speeds, etc. that drawing any conclusion is not logical. There is no way to know if the life of a water pump is extended due to an electric fan. Water pumps don't fail at a specific number of miles regardless of the fan in place.

It is important to note that the clutch fan cooling potential has shown to be sufficient and the clutch fan is designed to facilitate warming up the engine, and control the coolant temp when idling for an extended period of time or in extreme conditions.

There are also those that change to an electric fan for no other reason than there is history that their particular fan has been known to throw blades off causing damage to other engine or body components. IMO the E53 clutch fan is not prone to fail in that manner.

Racers have been installing electric fans for decades. The primary reason being to increase the available HP by eliminating that consumed by a clutch fan. In addition, the electric fan can be controlled. As an example the fan can be turned off during a drag race, the equivalent of no fan at all, and turned on without the engine running to cool the engine between races.

My only reason to remove the clutch fan in favor of an electric fan is to have available the HP used to turn the clutch fan. I have been racing on and off for 50+ years. I have always changed the stock fans to aftermarket fans. The change has always been worthwhile.

My particular application is on a 2002 4.6 with Dinan air box, MAF, throttle body, engine and trans software and exhaust. In addition, I have meth injection, 150 shot of nitrous and electric exhaust dumps. The transmission shifts at 6,500 RPMs when at wide open throttle.

I know of claims of additional HP made available from 0-17. I spoke with techs from Spal, Flex-A-Lite, and Bimmerworld about my particular application. I spoke with my favorite BMW speed shop that gives me the benefit of their experience and did my nitrous install. I also spoke with members of the BMW club I am in and did considerable research on my own. The conservative estimate for my particular application is 4-5 HP with a reasonable potential of up to 10 HP. Generally speaking, a 10 HP increase is equal to .1 improvement in elapsed time or a car length in a quarter of a mile drag race.

I choose to purchase a Flex-A-Lite Slimline fan model number 118 costing $179, their adjustable temperature control module model number 31148 at $50 and associated wiring harness at a cost of $48. I was unable to find the CFM rating of my clutch fan. The model 118 is rated at 2,500 CFM that will handle up to a 600HP big block. The fan draws 18.5 amps.

The performance of the fan has exceeded my expectations. There is a noticeable difference in how fast the engine revs which should transfer to improved performance. Apart from performance I really like that the engine reaches operating temperature faster and the normal radiator temp is maintained after the key is removed. (The fan will run for about 20 seconds every few minutes for around 20 minutes. The battery handles the usage just fine).

I can't imagine a controlled set of test parameters that could quantify additional available HP using an electric fan. There are just too many variables and even if the test happened to be accurate the results could only be applied to that particular application, in those particular conditions and on that specific dyno. Sometimes you just gotta have faith in the history of hundreds of thousands of racers that swear by the benefits of an electric fan. Regardless the debate will go on with neither camp able to present conclusive proof one way or the other.

Recently the controller fried. I don't know the cause although the previous day I was re-checking the original setting by dialing the temp that the fan engages higher and lower. I replaced the controller with the same model. My guess is that particular controller was faulty.

The fan I chose is a straight blade 16" fan that covers more than 70% of the radiator required for the fan to cool to maximum potential. I used the stock shroud with no modifications.

I placed the controller on the driver's side near the primary 12v source. The install is straightforward and can be done with basic tools with the exception being the removal of the clutch fan nut. The nut is 32mm. An inch and a quarter wrench is equivalent. Some suggest using a wrench on the nut and holding the water pump pulley with a screwdriver lodged between the bolt heads to lock the pulley in place and then whacking the wrench with a hammer. I don't use that method. There is an inexpensive special wrench set that does the job easily and without risking damage to the water pump bearing. FYI-The nut is removed going clockwise--righty loosey in this case.

It was necessary to lower the fan and the shroud together making it difficult to center the fan on the radiator. I glued a dowel on the water pump shaft and a dowel centered on the on the fan. Once the two dowels were lined up I used small punches that fit into the radiator fins to keep the fan in place until I secured it to the radiator. The fan is secured through the radiator fins with the provided straps.

The controller has a radiator probe that is pressed between radiator fins. The probe spreads the fin to a slight press fit but not enough to cause damage. There is no concern for the accuracy of the probe because the controller is adjustable. I have the controller set to power the fan just prior to when the aux fan starts up when the A/C is off.

If you decide to make the change feel free to PM me with any questions.

[crystalworks]

Nice writeup redliner. LOL pics could be a little better... But I think everyone will get the gist.

As for what to do about the thread. I wouldn't delete it... just clean it up. I'm surprised the mods have not done it yet honestly. This forum must be very infrequently visited by them.