Anyone removed clutch fan and replaced with electric?

[edogg]

I've been reading this thread, not because I have anything to add or am really interested in swapping my mechanical fan with an electric fan (though I understand the benefits of doing so).

At some point, the bigger person just needs to shake their head and walk away. And this springs to mind:



ETA: I'm also curious as to Trader4's strange line breaks...it's like he's hitting enter rather than letting the forum software wrap the lines automatically.

[bcredliner]

I agree with you. Somebody has to be the bigger person and stop this. I am fine if Trader4 wants to be that person, simply delighted. We have invited him to go away several times.

It is everyone's choice to or not to read posts. That's the only reason I haven't asked that the thread be deleted some time ago. I am very sensitive to the light I am putting myself in. However, I started this thread and I take exception to someone trashing it up. In the case of Trader4 I called him out on another thread where he was doing the same thing to someone else so he jumped to my thread to renew his stupid claims.

This thread was doomed when Trader4 arrogantly posted BMW owners are strange and if anyone thinks an electric fan is worthwhile they have their head up their a$# (paraphrased) on page 7. It was off topic and he has been off topic ever since.

I'l let my last counter to Trader4 sit until tomorrow and then ask the Admin to delete the thread. That's too bad, it is worthwhile to be aware of the benefits of an electric fan for performance and even daily driving, especially if you need to replace the clutch fan.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

"Somewhere along the line you did not accept the input that 'complete' and documented has nothing to do with accurate"

I never claimed it was 100% accurate, only that it was the most complete
test setup, with actual pics of it and actual dyno curves of many fans.
It looks like valid data can in fact be extracted from it.
And I find it incredible that you openly accept and don't question the words
of an electric fan salesman, while you completely reject an actual test.

If the clutch fan data is wrong, what we are comparing an electric fan to, there is no data to extract

"Somewhere along the line you ignored that leaders in a market like Flex-a-lite, who depend on the performance minded, must sell products that meet or exceed customer expectations or they go away."

I don't reject that at all. That they satisfied you and how it actually
performs for a typical driver, is it worth it for them, etc, are
different things.

This thread is only about performance, time it takes to get from point a to point B, I think I mentioned that before if I'm not mistaken.

"Somewhere along the line you ignored input that the HP benefit of an electric fan varies by each particular application"

Never said any such thing.
Of course it was not in those exact words


" If you want to know the additional HP available by an application the conservative answer will come from Company techs. They are well aware, racers measure the results of performance enhancements."

Then they should have pics of the test setup they used, the dyno
graphs, etc. Still waiting for those

Dyno results vary by Dyno, temp, humidity, how much air they blow into the radiator. They also vary by each individual application. Flex-A-Lite is wise not to print any results due to liability.
"Somewhere along the line you ignored input that it is clearly a wilda%$ guess that old or junk parts perform worse or better than new parts. It is also an assumption that the BMW clutch fan performs better or worse than old junk technology."

I would say it's a reasonable assumption that 40 year old junk
parts generally perform worse than brand new, modern design
ones. That's been my experience.

Key word is assumption and in my experience--paraphrased---I don't know but it sounds good

"You have just ignored clear input that the individual doing the test stated he did not understand the way a clutch fan worked "

Haven't ignored it at all. I said even with the old steel fixed fan, the
test graph showed no measurable difference in power below 3500
versus *no fan* at alland that a hydraulic clutch fan is clearly going
to do better than that. That's why they went to the more complicated
and costly hydraulic clutches to begin with.

It doesn't matter what the report says about anything it bogus. If one part is inaccurate the whole study is bogus, even relative differences. The test parameters are not consistent and it is not a professional study. Being the only dyno information contributed does not make it right.

And finally, just last year you said:

"I am only guessing it increases HP on and X5."

Certainly there was a time that I did not know how much horsepower would be available. It was not until I spoke with techs about my particular application, did some research and spoke with some of guys in the BMW club that I am in that I felt comfortable posting and estimated range.

So, seems like it's OK for you to question what's going on, but when
I do it and actually provide a relevant test setup, you have a problem
with that. And it was the *only* well documented test setup that anyone
has posted.
Well documented doesn't mean squat. It's a redneck engineering cobbled together, damned if I know but I'm a guessn' somebody out there is gonna claim it is the gospel. yuk yuk

And again, I note that while calling for censorship and calling
me a troll, you're the one that continues to call me stupid, ignorant,
etc. I've refrained from doing that to you or anyone else.

I'm not calling for censorship I'm going to ask Admin to delete the tread---all post go away. As far as calling you stupid, I was giving you credit at that.

[bcredliner]

What do you think?

Do you think it would be worthwhile if I prepared a DIY including why I made the change and the updates I posted?

I have asked the Admin to delete this thread. Do you think that is the best solution due to how difficult it would be to read through the clutter?

Another option would be to delete the this thread and start a new thread with an objective summary of what I did and where anyone could add what they would like and no one would respond to differences of opinion.

What do you think is the best option(s)?

[bcredliner]

About a year ago I decided to remove the clutch fan and replace it with an electric fan. The following summarizes why I made the change, what I did and the results:

Whether or not the removal of the clutch fan in favor of any aftermarket fan is beneficial has been debated for years and I wouldn't expect the debate to stop anytime soon. It is similar to a debate on whether or not transmission fluid should ever be changed on an E53. Obviously, I believe there are worthwhile benefits of an electric fan.

IMO, for daily driving, there can be benefits such as improved mileage, less stress on the water pump bearings, better cooling at low RPMs, engine reaching operating temp faster, and controlling radiator heat after the engine is off. Performance gains are transferable to a lessor degree since daily driving is not often at the high end of engine RPM range where electric fan performance gains are at their peak.

There are so many variables in daily driving such as temp, humidity, terrain, varying speeds, etc. that drawing any conclusion is not logical. There is no way to know if the life of a water pump is extended due to an electric fan. Water pumps don't fail at a specific number of miles regardless of the fan in place.

It is important to note that the clutch fan cooling potential has shown to be sufficient and the clutch fan is designed to facilitate warming up the engine, and control the coolant temp when idling for an extended period of time or in extreme conditions.

There are also those that change to an electric fan for no other reason than there is history that their particular fan has been known to throw blades off causing damage to other engine or body components. IMO the E53 clutch fan is not prone to fail in that manner.

Racers have been installing electric fans for decades. The primary reason being to increase the available HP by eliminating that consumed by a clutch fan. In addition, the electric fan can be controlled. As an example the fan can be turned off during a drag race, the equivalent of no fan at all, and turned on without the engine running to cool the engine between races.

My only reason to remove the clutch fan in favor of an electric fan is to have available the HP used to turn the clutch fan. I have been racing on and off for 50+ years. I have always changed the stock fans to aftermarket fans. The change has always been worthwhile.

My particular application is on a 2002 4.6 with Dinan air box, MAF, throttle body, engine and trans software and exhaust. In addition, I have meth injection, 150 shot of nitrous and electric exhaust dumps. The transmission shifts at 6,500 RPMs when at wide open throttle.

I know of claims of additional HP made available from 0-17. I spoke with techs from Spal, Flex-A-Lite, and Bimmerworld about my particular application. I spoke with my favorite BMW speed shop that gives me the benefit of their experience and did my nitrous install. I also spoke with members of the BMW club I am in and did considerable research on my own. The conservative estimate for my particular application is 4-5 HP with a reasonable potential of up to 10 HP. Generally speaking, a 10 HP increase is equal to .1 improvement in elapsed time or a car length in a quarter of a mile drag race.

I choose to purchase a Flex-A-Lite Slimline fan model number 118 costing $179, their adjustable temperature control module model number 31148 at $50 and associated wiring harness at a cost of $48. I was unable to find the CFM rating of my clutch fan. The model 118 is rated at 2,500 CFM that will handle up to a 600HP big block. The fan draws 18.5 amps.

The performance of the fan has exceeded my expectations. There is a noticeable difference in how fast the engine revs which should transfer to improved performance. Apart from performance I really like that the engine reaches operating temperature faster and the normal radiator temp is maintained after the key is removed. (The fan will run for about 20 seconds every few minutes for around 20 minutes. The battery handles the usage just fine).

I can't imagine a controlled set of test parameters that could quantify additional available HP using an electric fan. There are just too many variables and even if the test happened to be accurate the results could only be applied to that particular application, in those particular conditions and on that specific dyno. Sometimes you just gotta have faith in the history of hundreds of thousands of racers that swear by the benefits of an electric fan. Regardless the debate will go on with neither camp able to present conclusive proof one way or the other.

Recently the controller fried. I don't know the cause although the previous day I was re-checking the original setting by dialing the temp that the fan engages higher and lower. I replaced the controller with the same model. My guess is that particular controller was faulty.

The fan I chose is a straight blade 16" fan that covers more than 70% of the radiator required for the fan to cool to maximum potential. I used the stock shroud with no modifications.

I placed the controller on the driver's side near the primary 12v source. The install is straightforward and can be done with basic tools with the exception being the removal of the clutch fan nut. The nut is 32mm. An inch and a quarter wrench is equivalent. Some suggest using a wrench on the nut and holding the water pump pulley with a screwdriver lodged between the bolt heads to lock the pulley in place and then whacking the wrench with a hammer. I don't use that method. There is an inexpensive special wrench set that does the job easily and without risking damage to the water pump bearing. FYI-The nut is removed going clockwise--righty loosey in this case.

It was necessary to lower the fan and the shroud together making it difficult to center the fan on the radiator. I glued a dowel on the water pump shaft and a dowel centered on the on the fan. Once the two dowels were lined up I used small punches that fit into the radiator fins to keep the fan in place until I secured it to the radiator. The fan is secured through the radiator fins with the provided straps.

The controller has a radiator probe that is pressed between radiator fins. The probe spreads the fin to a slight press fit but not enough to cause damage. There is no concern for the accuracy of the probe because the controller is adjustable. I have the controller set to power the fan just prior to when the aux fan starts up when the A/C is off.

If you decide to make the change feel free to PM me with any questions.

[crystalworks]

Nice writeup redliner. LOL pics could be a little better... But I think everyone will get the gist.

As for what to do about the thread. I wouldn't delete it... just clean it up. I'm surprised the mods have not done it yet honestly. This forum must be very infrequently visited by them.

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by trader4

Maybe they're just not into calls for censorship and open to a
free exchange of ideas. And please note, I had left this
alone for a couple of days now, but here you are, stirring it up
yet again, by another not so subtle call for censorship. And also
note that through all of this, I never called anyone stupid, ignorant,
used religious slurs, etc. But others sure did.

I did not stir anything up. I want it cleaned up in the interest of being able to find information easier (including your reference to those tests you are citing). Someone should not have to sift through pages of 5 or 6 people trying to convince one person of something while looking for information on doing the swap.

And now they can add these last 2 posts (yours and this one) to the list of replies needing to be cleaned up.

We appreciated your brief hiatus and why you interpreted anything I said as stirring something up I have no idea... surely, you can admit that 90% of the last handful of pages have just been back and forth exercises frustration.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

Nice writeup redliner. LOL pics could be a little better... But I think everyone will get the gist.

As for what to do about the thread. I wouldn't delete it... just clean it up. I'm surprised the mods have not done it yet honestly. This forum must be very infrequently visited by them.

What pictures would you like me drop, change or add? I have contacted the Admin several times and they have been very responsive.

[UCrewX5]

Closing this thread. A new thread has been started that summarizes bcredliner's project.