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Old 04-22-2020, 06:37 PM
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Rolled the Dice, Came Up Snakeyes (4f89 Fault) Trans Replacement

Okay all, just putting this here to help those who may have this fault in the future. Warning long read ahead most likely. Wife's 2010 x35d has been exhibiting a trans fault (4F85) on very rare occasions. Happened three times at highway speeds over 6 months under very specific circumstances. Under passing requiring gear to drop and then letting off. All three times it trans failsafed (a good thing) and we coasted to a stop on the shoulder. Restart and drive home as normal.

Well, the last time (early January) was the last time for me. It has to be fixed. So I take it off the road throw it on jackstands and do some research (a lot of research). Now, the E clutch is engaged as a sort of assist clutch for 4,5, and 6. So 1-3 gear will operate fine. Now, the ZF6hp28 that is in the diesel is very similar to all the 6hp models so most of this will apply to all of those as well (the 19, 26, etc). Here is the best information I could find regarding the E clutch trans code.

https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/Z...E-Clutch-Fault

This is the most dis-heartening quote in the article:

Quote:
Itís an unfortunate fact that itís almost impossible to diagnose the cause of the E clutch fault with 100% certainty... Clues can point you in the right direction, but practically speaking you might be as well just closing your eyes, pulling one of the possible causes out of a hat
The TLDR of that article is that the cause could be a great many things. Some easy, some not so easy. Most are expensive. So I was going to work in a comprehensive manner and do all the things I could that did not require the trans being pulled. That included: oil pan/filter, mechatronic sleeve, 4 tube seals, bridge seal, and a valve body rebuild. Total for all this was ~$1000. My thinking is, I don't want to go in there more than once and if one of those was not the issue, the trans would have to come down anyway.

By the way, the valve body guys did warn me before purchasing that the probable cause would end up being the E clutch bushing that is referred to in that article. They were great and turnaround was crazy. Like 2 days. Highly recommend Worldwide Specialty Parts out of Ohio. Was awesome of them to warn me prior to purchasing.

Here is my fluid after I dropped the old pan. Fluid did not smell burnt or overly bad. Lots of glitter/sparkles, but no worse than the 182000 mile E61 I just did with the 6hp19 in it so that didn't overly worry me. That 5er wagon shifts great now and is a joy to drive.



And the valve body in the car and then removed with the TCM taken off.





So I get the valve body back from them, again, crazy fast.



I reinstall the TCM, install the new tube and bridge seals, put the valve body back into the trans, new mechatronic sleeve, pan, and fill with fluid everything torqued to spec). 3.5ltrs first fill, start engine, warm up trans to 80F, added 3.5ltrs more, shifted trans through gears, warmed up to 104F, added 1.5ltrs more and got a trickle out and put the new drain plug in. All went just like the E61 in terms of fill. So I was unconcerned. Did a Xfer case fluid change because I was there and was tired of getting the expired fluid code every time I scanned the truck. Put the shields back on and took it off the jack stands. Then reset the Xfer case fluid values and code and cleared the transmission adaptations. Checked the tire air pressures (all low by 5-8psi from sitting) and set off on the test drive.

The 1-3 shifting is a little "hunty" but I expected that as after you clear the trans adaptations it shifts a little oddly for a 100 miles ish. That was the experience on my E61 and what I found in my research online as well. So I was stoked. Then I turn out of my neighborhood and the first time (and every subsequent time) the trans attempts to go into 4th gear I now get trans fail safe. Clear the trans codes and after the 3rd time it failed going into 4th I just limped it back home and pulled it back into the garage, deflated. The codes now are 4F89 for 3-4 gear ratio monitoring. Not surprising as 4th is the first gear that uses the E clutch.

So, my last "hail mary" to try and avoid a full rebuild is going to be to fill the trans with Valvoline Maxlife multivehile ATF. It's a much thicker fluid and is a cheap attempt and I have seen some really good reviews about how it can bring ZF boxes back from the dead. Don't get me wrong, I'm not holding my breath. But for $40 worth of fluid it's worth a shot to attempt. I will update this thread with how I get on with it. I figure this will help someone. Let me know if you have any thoughts, opinions, condolences.

The patient:

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Last edited by crystalworks; 03-22-2021 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 04-22-2020, 07:31 PM
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Did they test the valve body on the bench? Some of the rebuilders can bench test the valve body to ensure everything is working as expected. Someone mentioned these people as a shop that can do that. https://revmaxconverters.com/

And did they change the solenoids? You did not mention them.
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smassey321 View Post
Did they test the valve body on the bench? Some of the rebuilders can bench test the valve body to ensure everything is working as expected. Someone mentioned these people as a shop that can do that. https://revmaxconverters.com/

And did they change the solenoids? You did not mention them.
Yes, sorry. The solenoids are changed and a rebuild/upgrade of the valve body using Sonnax parts is performed. They then put them on a bench tester before sending them out. Here is a link to the rebuild they offer for the 6hp28: https://worldwidespecialtyparts.com/...rvice-2006-up/. I have a pretty high level of confidence in the service, but I guess everyone can make mistakes.
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2005 X5 4.4i Build 04/05 Maintenance/Build Log
Nav, Pano, Sport (Purchased 06/14 w/ 109,000 miles) (Sold 8/15 w/121,000 miles)


2006 X5 4.8is Build 11/05 Maintenance/Build Log
Nav, DSP, Pano, Running Boards, OEM Tow Hitch, Cold Weather Pckg (Purchased 08/15 w/ 90,500 miles)

2010 X5 35d Build 02/10
Nav, HiFi, 6 DVD, Sports Pckg, Cold Weather Pckg, HUD, CAS, Running Boards, Leather Dash, PDC, Pano (Purchased 03/17 w/ 136,120 miles)
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Old 04-22-2020, 10:48 PM
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Will you pull it yourself?

Sorry to hear about the troubles with the ZF. Are you going to pull it yourself?

Too bad you are a world away.........I'd come out and lend a hand but I can't even leave the state to pick up mine from NJ.........
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:24 PM
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Crystal-

I've done 75+ ZF trans jobs ranging from the 6hp19 and up. Sub 80K i use Liqui moly toptec 1800 fluid. Over 80K- they all get Redline D4. If you did your mech seals and valvebody, run this fluid.
My 4.8is tranny had issues 2x- first when i bought it to fix it @138k, and 2nd ~20k miles down the road. I don't drive the truck easy and right now at 173k it runs better then the first time i fixed it.

The redline runs a little thicker at temp and the higher mileage cars love it. It's fixed alot of X5's for people who were having minor to moderate issues with trans. My one daily 528xi has 220k OE tranny, and stage 3 XHP trans flash- runs like a bull.

Also- if this is your last ditch effort before swapping trans- do the following-

-Half bottle lucas trans additive
-Rest redline D4 fluid

That took care of 4 6hp's that were having moderate issues that were being pesky, including my own 4.8is.
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Old 04-23-2020, 12:17 AM
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Having similar spotty issue with my 2008 X5 3.0

Reverse is nearly gone after engine heats up. Or I drive more then 20mins
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Old 04-23-2020, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriX5 View Post
Sorry to hear about the troubles with the ZF. Are you going to pull it yourself?
I will be pulling it myself. I wish I could afford to pay someone to work on my cars. Or maybe not, the few times I've taken my cars places, it has not gone well. This is even a shop I used to work at in one instance. And I respect the owner and trust him 100%. Haha. No one takes care of your vehicle like you do. He was wondering why I didn't bring it back as they would have fixed the issue free under warranty. But I just couldn't do it. I even brought him back the failed part (installer error) for him to return under worldpac warranty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4.8isX5 View Post
've done 75+ ZF trans jobs ranging from the 6hp19 and up. Sub 80K i use Liqui moly toptec 1800 fluid. Over 80K- they all get Redline D4. If you did your mech seals and valvebody, run this fluid.
My 4.8is tranny had issues 2x- first when i bought it to fix it @138k, and 2nd ~20k miles down the road. I don't drive the truck easy and right now at 173k it runs better then the first time i fixed it.

The redline runs a little thicker at temp and the higher mileage cars love it. It's fixed alot of X5's for people who were having minor to moderate issues with trans. My one daily 528xi has 220k OE tranny, and stage 3 XHP trans flash- runs like a bull.

Also- if this is your last ditch effort before swapping trans- do the following-

-Half bottle lucas trans additive
-Rest redline D4 fluid

That took care of 4 6hp's that were having moderate issues that were being pesky, including my own 4.8is.
Thanks for the input. The e61 got liqui moly 1800 @ 182000 and is awesome. Better shifting than before service.

The e70 got pentosin because it came as part of the pan service kit. Going to swap it out for the Valvoline stuff and see what happens. If that doesn't work, I'll try the redline + Lucas additive. It's all easier than dropping the trans obviously.
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Nav, Pano, Sport (Purchased 06/14 w/ 109,000 miles) (Sold 8/15 w/121,000 miles)


2006 X5 4.8is Build 11/05 Maintenance/Build Log
Nav, DSP, Pano, Running Boards, OEM Tow Hitch, Cold Weather Pckg (Purchased 08/15 w/ 90,500 miles)

2010 X5 35d Build 02/10
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Old 04-26-2020, 03:58 PM
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Okay. Update:

Drained ~5L of the Pentosin out of the trans after putting almost 8L in on the full service. The fill process took ~5L of Valvoline Maxlife. Took the truck out for a test drive and as before it failed to go into 4th in auto shift. But it tried significantly more times before fail safe error popped up. Felt as if it made it into 4th and then slipped out 3 times before fail safe. So maybe progress? I took it for another drive today to mix the 5L of Valvoline with the 3L of Pentosin a little more. I drove it only in manual mode this time. It completed 4th gear shifts 3 times (though not the smoothest shifts ever, definitely a kick) before fail safe mode and kicking the shifter back over to auto. Kind of cool how it does all that.

So, my new plan is to drain again and fill with another ~5L of Valvoline Maxlife. Go drive it around the neighborhood again manual shifting. Even if it does the same thing, I am trying to get as much of the Pentosin out as possible. Then I'll drain it again and fill using the final hail mary 4.8isX5 suggested. Redline D4 + 1/2 bottle of Lucas transmission fix. Worth a shot before dropping the trans in my eyes.

^If the above "fixes" the problem, awesome. If the trans failsafes intermittently every so often we might trade it in. Wife would be gutted. If there is no change at all and it will fail immediately I'll drop the trans. A used trans runs anywhere from $800 - 4000 (for rebuilt). Don't know if I would trust myself rebuilding it as I don't have a large clean area to do so and be meticulous. Would have to find a reputable rebuilder. But I'll cross those bridges when I come to them.
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2005 X5 4.4i Build 04/05 Maintenance/Build Log
Nav, Pano, Sport (Purchased 06/14 w/ 109,000 miles) (Sold 8/15 w/121,000 miles)


2006 X5 4.8is Build 11/05 Maintenance/Build Log
Nav, DSP, Pano, Running Boards, OEM Tow Hitch, Cold Weather Pckg (Purchased 08/15 w/ 90,500 miles)

2010 X5 35d Build 02/10
Nav, HiFi, 6 DVD, Sports Pckg, Cold Weather Pckg, HUD, CAS, Running Boards, Leather Dash, PDC, Pano (Purchased 03/17 w/ 136,120 miles)
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Old 04-26-2020, 07:08 PM
ard ard is offline
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My issue with getting into transmissions has been tooling....


did I miss it? How many miles and what was prior maintenance on you tranny?

Be nice if the guys at worldwide could do the rebuild. Especially since you already have the beefed up VB. Shipping is the beeatch i guess.


thx for posting, SUPER helpful as these trannies are black boxes ...to us.



Last edited by ard; 04-26-2020 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 04-26-2020, 07:33 PM
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Think it was 182k miles?
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