Help me decide on a new purchase..3.0 or diesel?

[nynd]

Diesel is the way to go - honestly, go and drive one. With BMW, its all about performance. They build a car/suv for speed and handling. If you are not a driving enthusiast, taking turns at a high rate to see and feel the car stay planted then no need to go for the gas powerplants. If 0-60 matters to you, then diesel is not for you. From what I've seen, looks like diesel will retain a higher trade in value than gas version. Operating cost should be lower and for those looking to tow a boat/trailer, can't beat the torque of the diesel. Fueling is not an issue as you won't visit the gas station as often (which is when you'll be glad you bought the diesel). Exterior wise, car is the same and you can order the 20" and sports package if you really want. Aside of that, they are fairly quiet and do require the DEF every so often. DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) is available at truck stops far cheaper than going to the dealer and if you can add washer fluid, then you can add DEF.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Do the service and maintenance intervals differ between diesel and petrol?
And does diesel have more problem in extreme cold weather than petrol?

bigX5er answered, but my thoughts from 20+ years of diesel service experience (not on BMW) are:

The service intervals do not have substantial differences. Unscheduled items such as fuel filters are more likely to be required on a diesel, but that shouldn't be enough of a reason to pick a diesel or not.

Diesel fuel has more problems in cold weather (it gels at low temperatures). Winter diesel blends are designed to address that problem, but they often come with a mileage penalty (winter diesel usually has lower energy content). You may see anywhere from 0 - 10% reduction in fuel mileage in winter. Modern diesel vehicles have heated fuel systems to deal with the fuel issue, but there is the potential for some difficulty, and the additional systems are one more thing that can fail, impacting overall reliability. Depends somewhat on how cold it is where you are. Diesels also like to be run warm, which is why trucks often have winter fronts on their grills to restrict cold air flow. In very cold weather you need to make sure the vehicle has time to get fully warmed up, ie your trip is sufficiently long. Idling it to warm it up doesn't help.

[ard]

Originally Posted by bigx5er

I still remember the day I was driving away from my health club early on a cold morning. I drove by someone and they stared at my X5 as I drove by. She was surprised by the noise it was making. Call that my own ego problem or image, but these are $60K purchases.

My P twin turbo listed at $153k, and I tossed on a europipe Stage 2 Loud exhaust for another $5k plus other mods, including a DME flashloader for $2500. I really do not give a crap what people think about what I drive, what I look like or what I sound like. Give me yellow side lights, give me loud cars, give be a 1987 beater dakota- just dont really care.

Had I heard someone was surprised by the noise my diesel X5 made my first thought would be "she's ignorant". And nothing more.

I would almost say that by Ven Diagram, the universe of "diesel anything owners" and "health club members" has almost no overlap....

Originally Posted by bigx5er

On trips it wasn't great and we used the gloves. Again, not a terrible thing, but not something I really wanted to mess with. My wife finally refused to do the fill-ups due to the mess on some pumps.

Gloves??!?!? OMG. Grab a towel in your hand and put the damn nozzle into the tank- squeeze. Really.... maybe I don't get out much, but this is such a non-issue for me. If I am out on business, I do this on gas and diesel the same...

Originally Posted by bigx5er

So I like JCLs balanced way of looking at it. The diesel is a nice engine for the right people. But it won't agree with everyone and that is fine also.

I'd say JCLs "balanced" way of looking at it, is about as balanced as Fox's "fair and balanced"... sounds balanced, but is biased. Not that opinions are bad, or that his observations are incorrect. But some of it is opinion and bias. In the end, I agree with his conclusion- make your own decision.



A

Edit: Before my friend JCL objects, I'd cite this line as a bit of bias:

"Diesels are less refined, they are a little coarser with respect to vibration, but some owners like that. They identify with Kenworth drivers. Some owners secretly wish they could have a Mack truck bulldog hood ornament."

Less refined? (I reject the assertion that vibration is "less refined" and "coarser".) Identifying with truckers? Its all good though- I agree with his thrust, by and large...

[JCL]

Originally Posted by santo

I rarely disagree with JCL but some of these comments are generalities.

In a X5d, you hear some clatter at idle and I have read that BMW actually engineered a little extra engine noise; more so than the other manufacturers. With enough sound insulation (which the X5 has plenty of), you could virtually completely mask the sound. Standing outside of it while it idles or as a driver at idle and getting up to speed you can hear some noise that doesn't exactly sound like a gas engine but it doesn't really sound like clatter either; you have to experience it. You can't hear the diesel at all at any cruising speed. Through a whole passenger experience, I have to answer the same question. "Are you sure this is a diesel?".

Extra vibration doesn't exist in an X5d because it's a diesel. It is as smooth as a gasoline car.

Maybe it's just me but I like the smell of diesel better. It's not as pungent and concentrated as gasoline and while I was refilling for the first time, I has to lean over and smell the filler neck just to experience what it smelled like. If you read the forums, you hear a lot about unkempt pumps and pump handles that are covered in diesel. This really isn't the case at regular gas stations. I've gone to a truck stop once and it was a little more unkempt but it still wasn't bad. In this neck of the woods, I just asked for the "car pump" because the truck pumps have larger nozzles. "Spilling some on yourself" may occur if you try to use a truck nozzle in a car like the 35d because it doesn't fit right and if you use the little "nozzle converter" that comes with the car, the pump doesn't shut off automatically. Hence, you're more likely to spill some on yourself. This doesn't happen with car pumps. Car pumps work just like gasoline pumps.

Haven't had service done yet as I'm just over a month but it could be true. Since I read somewhere that diesel X5s are outselling its gasoline counterpart, if this hasn't changed already, it will quickly.

The low revs were a bit of a surprise. The first week, I was trying to drive very lightly to not hit over 3,000 rpms for break-in and quickly figured out that you won't hit above 3,000 rpms by just driving normally (normal meaning you don't gun it from light to light).

I am enjoying some excellent gas mileage from a 5,000 lb tank that puts almost all SUVs and many cars to shame. The new 35i is no slouch in this department either though. I haven't seen some real world gas mileage from a 35i but you can take a look at my Fuelly stats for a new 35ds fuel mileage.

Yes, I agree that they are generalities, but the question was very general.

I would be very surprised if BMW added clatter to an engine that already had more than their other engines. Sounds like a sales rep talking, to me.

I agree that the smoothness is good for a diesel. It just isn't good when compared directly to any BMW gasoline engine built in the past 40 years. Any discussion of modern diesel smoothness always seems to include the phrase "...for a diesel". That is my point, that it is good compared to other diesels, but the question was, how is it compared to a gasoline BMW engine. I maintain that it is noisier, additional sound insulation notwithstanding. As I said, some people like the noise.

The additional vibration I am referring to is engine vibation, not vehicle vibration. You can't get over the fact that there are much higher peak cylinder pressures. They cause additional engine vibration. You can isolate it with special engine mounts, etc, but the engine vibration compared to a similar gasoline engine is a design fact as long as you are going to use the compression ignition cycle.

Dip your hands in two fuel samples, one gasoline and one diesel. The diesel one is oilier, has more fumes, and stays on your hands longer. That is why people discuss using gloves to refuel. I don't remember a discussion about gloves for gasoline pumps. I worked (many years ago) for a fuel distributor, gasoline/diesel/heating oil/stove oil. I grew to tolerate the diesel, but I never got to the point where I enjoyed smelling it.

BMW has a big challenge training all their dealer technicians, or at least a subset of them. Most automotive mechanics haven't worked on diesels before, and in some locations (like where I live) there are different mechanic's tickets for diesels vs gasoline vehicles. You can't fault the mechanics, but many are going to have to learn a new skill set. If diesels continue to be adopted, then years from now this won't be an issue. It will continue to be an issue for some years, though. It isn't just the technicians, it is the parts people, service advisors, and so on. It is a natural function of introducing a new product line to what is a pretty traditional work force.

Interesting discussion. I am not anti-diesel. I am glad you enjoy your new vehicle. I tried to provide some balance. I made my living from diesel powered vehicles for many years (heavy equipment, gensets, trucks, marine power) I have owned two diesel passenger vehicles (both in Europe, a VW and a Landrover). I have driven many diesel passenger vehicles, but have very limited experience with the 35d, hence the general nature of my responses. I think there is a place for diesel vehicles. I just don't think that we should change all passenger vehicles over to diesel, they are simply better in some applications than others.

I just came back from a road trip two days ago (1500 km) and I am heading out again tomorrow on the same route. Best tank was 8.0 litres/100 km on premium gasoline, equating to 35.5 mpg (29.6 mpg US). Around town we are getting 11 litres/100 km, equating to 25.8 mpg (21.5 mpg US). We got around that same mid twenties consumption towing a trailer with 2000 lbs load through the rockies. All on an X3 3.0si, 265 hp, 6 speed manual transmission. So I am getting pretty much what any 35d driver is getting, but I am limited to towing 3500 lbs. I am not in any way suggesting that everyone should buy an X3, but it works for us. I may take the 535 tomorrow, as it does about 10% better than the X3 due to the direct injection and better aerodynamics. Just imagine the new X3 with the 20d or 23d, now that would be an interesting vehicle.

It would be boring if we all wanted the same vehicle. But at the same time, when comparing two different models, I think it is worth pointing out to the original poster that there are differences. When he does his analysis, he can decide which factors to weigh more heavily.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by ard

I'd say JCLs "balanced" way of looking at it, is about as balanced as Fox's "fair and balanced"... sounds balanced, but is biased. Not that opinions are bad, or that his observations are incorrect. But some of it is opinion and bias. In the end, I agree with his conclusion- make your own decision.

I just spit up my coffee! You got me and Fox News in the same sentence!

Got to run, back later.

[Penguin]

Well, all I can say is that my X35D is the first diesel I have had and, after 13,000 miles, I would not consider anything but the diesel for the X5. Lots of torque (rarely downshifts going uphill in the mountains), more than enough power for me, and a consistent 28 mpg on the highway. It still amazes me that I can have such great passing power on the highway and still get 28 mpg in a 5,000+ lb vehicle.

Now, I am not sure about wanting a diesel in my Z4 where I have a manual and like free-revving and shifting, but for a SAV/SUV, it is, in my opinion, a perfect match of vehicle to engine characteristics.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by ard

Before my friend JCL objects, I'd cite this line as a bit of bias:

"Diesels are less refined, they are a little coarser with respect to vibration, but some owners like that. They identify with Kenworth drivers. Some owners secretly wish they could have a Mack truck bulldog hood ornament."

Less refined? (I reject the assertion that vibration is "less refined" and "coarser".) Identifying with truckers? Its all good though- I agree with his thrust, by and large...

Perhaps the humour was a bit dry Of course, the Kenworth and Mack Truck lines were posted by new diesel owners who characterized their new X5s as very truck-like. I have felt that way about an F350, but never about an X5.

I consider engine vibration to be an undesirable characteristic, and a hallmark of a less refined engine. Wasn't trying to call it crude or vulgar, or lacking in quality, just not as smooth as the gasoline counterpart. Turbine smooth, a phrase often applied to Jaguar and BMW inline six engines, and many V12 engines, hasn't often been applied to diesel engines. Of course, that vibration is simply the power stroke of a torquey long stroke engine, so if the torque is more important, then I guess the vibration could be seen as a great thing. I don't get a visceral rush out of a BMW diesel engine note. I get more fun out of taking a manual transmission BMW to 6000 revs and listening to the engine, than I do in not having to shift at 1500 rpm on a hill. It is all good, both are valid owner experiences.

This all illustrates a good point for the original poster, which is simply that diesel engines tend to generate quite strong opinions. That is probably a great thing in terms of customer loyalty. It just needs to be understood by a prospective purchaser when a decision is being made whether or not to join the diesel X5 club, vs the gasoline engine X5 club.

[whyireef]

Purchased our 35d in May of '09 new - now has 5,500 miles on it!

It's Black Saphire w/two-tone saddle-brown/black interior - every option but entertainment system.

I love the vehicle, the suspention, brakes, cornering (it has the sport package), other amenities and it's the diesel that's going to make me buy 3rd gen X5 (they'd BETTER still have the diesel)!

Can't say enough about the diesel - it's worth every penny I paid for the BMW (orig wanted the Cayenne S).

[JCL]

Originally Posted by whyireef

Purchased our 35d in May of '09 new - now has 5,500 miles on it!

It's Black Saphire w/two-tone saddle-brown/black interior - every option but entertainment system.

I love the vehicle, the suspension, brakes, cornering (it has the sport package), other amenities and it's the diesel that's going to make me buy 3rd gen X5 (they'd BETTER still have the diesel)!

Can't say enough about the diesel - it's worth every penny I paid for the BMW (orig wanted the Cayenne S).

Sounds great

What are the pros and cons of the diesel 35d vs the 35i? Why is it the diesel engine that will make you buy a next generation X5?

[whyireef]

Originally Posted by JCL

Sounds great

What are the pros and cons of the diesel 35d vs the 35i? Why is it the diesel engine that will make you buy a next generation X5?

Nothing quantitative to offer; only opinions here.

The power curve on the diesel is perfect for the X5. Of course, I haven't driven the new TT petrols and with the 35d, I don't want for anything, so it's likely I've been charmed.

I did drive the old six and eight cylinders and chose the 35d without hesitation. Since, I've only grown more fond.

Now that I think about it, the 5.0TT is intriguing....seriously, it's not often I would completely buy a vehicle again, if given another chance to start over, but the 35d I would certainly do again in a skinny minute.