Maintenance Warranty Timing Question

[ard]

Originally Posted by ozam

I need your dealer in Atlanta. They want $1500+ for fronts and rears ($850 on the fronts alone) and the indies are about $1300 +/-.

I stand by my initial comments on price.

The numbers being thrown about are most certainly the exception and not the rule.

Just MHO

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[BGM]

Originally Posted by ozam

I need your dealer in Atlanta. They want $1500+ for fronts and rears ($850 on the fronts alone) and the indies are about $1300 +/-.

The amount of weight of the X5 just burns through the pads. I think an indy told me that usually the rotors should be replaced for every 2 times you do the pads--or something like that. I had all pads/rotors done last year at an indy for $1,200--dealer wanted $2,000.

[ard]

Originally Posted by BGM

The amount of weight of the X5 just burns through the pads. I think an indy told me that usually the rotors should be replaced for every 2 times you do the pads--or something like that.

Interesting issue.

There are specs on the rotors for thickness- the problem is that one could conceivably replace the pads and the rotors are fine, but in the ensuing period you could run the rotors down below their minimum and still not hit the pad wear sensor. A BMW dealer will replace both pads and rotors even if the rotors are OK to avoid liability.

Personally I can check them myself and replace the rotors when needed. on other cars I can usually get a few pad sets per rotor...YMMV

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[JCL]

Originally Posted by ard

Interesting issue.

There are specs on the rotors for thickness- the problem is that one could conceivably replace the pads and the rotors are fine, but in the ensuing period you could run the rotors down below their minimum and still not hit the pad wear sensor. A BMW dealer will replace both pads and rotors even if the rotors are OK to avoid liability.

Personally I can check them myself and replace the rotors when needed. on other cars I can usually get a few pad sets per rotor...YMMV

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While I agree that rotors will often make it through a few sets of pads, we also need to remember that thinner rotors don't perform as well. They won't stop as well on repeated brake applications as they will heat up faster. You can get glazing, and that leads to brake noise.

Many shops replace rotors each time not so much for the liability issue, in my experience, but to avoid the rework cost if the customer comes back complaining of noisy brakes. We would reuse rotors if the customer wanted us to, and they were within spec, but it was the customer's cost if they were noisy and needed a second job.

I have always replaced rotors each time I did pads on my BMWs, just because it wasn't worth my time to go back in and do them again. Same reason I don't use retread tires, even though they are probably available.

[ard]

Originally Posted by JCL

While I agree that rotors will often make it through a few sets of pads, we also need to remember that thinner rotors don't perform as well. They won't stop as well on repeated brake applications as they will heat up faster. You can get glazing, and that leads to brake noise.

Many shops replace rotors each time not so much for the liability issue, in my experience, but to avoid the rework cost if the customer comes back complaining of noisy brakes. We would reuse rotors if the customer wanted us to, and they were within spec, but it was the customer's cost if they were noisy and needed a second job.

I have always replaced rotors each time I did pads on my BMWs, just because it wasn't worth my time to go back in and do them again. Same reason I don't use retread tires, even though they are probably available.

I've never had a service issue with a rotor that was still in spec causing brake noise. (Assuming a normal wear pattern.)

If I was a customer of yours, I would have insisted that the warranty should apply as long as the rotor was in spec- not just in spec when the pad was replaced, but in spec when (if) I returned with a noise complaint. Wouldn't that be reasonable? Are you saying BMWs stated specification (printed on the rotor) is wrong?

As a customer I would not accept a mechanic making up their own interpretations of how or why a warranty would apply if there was no technical basis for their interpretation- of course mechanics do this all the time to (a) make more money, and (b) minimize their hassle. They justify it with a lazy "well these parts interact and we'll just make it a policy". (I have had Americas Tire refuse to remount my 3mm wheel spacers on my M5 saying "wheel spacers are unsafe"...3mm is the width of this character: O ...they would not warrant the tires, and would not mount the wheels, if I used that spacer.)

JCL, you come from a very "business centric" view of maintenance... to equate retread tires to rotors that are fully within spec is certainly disingenuous. I'd venture to say that nobody on the forum would consider a retread, yet you equate this to a rotor that BMW has said still meets spec- considering they BMW must have uses a significant safety margin in that spec. Perhaps a turn of phrase, or just your personal view if reusing a rotor.... but not supported by BMW's specifications.

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[JCL]

Originally Posted by ard

I've never had a service issue with a rotor that was still in spec causing brake noise. (Assuming a normal wear pattern.)

If I was a customer of yours, I would have insisted that the warranty should apply as long as the rotor was in spec- not just in spec when the pad was replaced, but in spec when (if) I returned with a noise complaint. Wouldn't that be reasonable? Are you saying BMWs stated specification (printed on the rotor) is wrong?

As a customer I would not accept a mechanic making up their own interpretations of how or why a warranty would apply if there was no technical basis for their interpretation- of course mechanics do this all the time to (a) make more money, and (b) minimize their hassle. They justify it with a lazy "well these parts interact and we'll just make it a policy". (I have had Americas Tire refuse to remount my 3mm wheel spacers on my M5 saying "wheel spacers are unsafe"...3mm is the width of this character: O ...they would not warrant the tires, and would not mount the wheels, if I used that spacer.)

JCL, you come from a very "business centric" view of maintenance... to equate retread tires to rotors that are fully within spec is certainly disingenuous. I'd venture to say that nobody on the forum would consider a retread, yet you equate this to a rotor that BMW has said still meets spec- considering they BMW must have uses a significant safety margin in that spec. Perhaps a turn of phrase, or just your personal view if reusing a rotor.... but not supported by BMW's specifications.

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You have never seen a brake rotor that meets the minimum thickness specification, but which has brake squeal due to the surface finish of the rotor after new pads are installed? Ever? What if you think the rotor should be turned on a lathe, but there is not enough metal left to do it safely? That would require you to reuse the rotor, to meet the thickness spec, even though the surface finish was suspect.

Brake squeal/noise complaints are such a problem for manufacturers and dealers that companies like BMW even add a lubricant into their pad formulations, to reduce noise complaints. That is the black that shows up as dust, and they certainly wouldn't add it and muck up all of our wheels if they weren't worried about reducing brake noise complaints.

Let me clarify the warranty statement I made. The service warranty always applies, I would stand behind the quality of the service work I performed. If I saw rotors that I judged should be replaced, and the customer decided he wanted to do a half job, then the warranty would just apply to the work that was done, ie replacing the pads in this example. If there was a squealing problem soon after the brake job, ie after the vehicle left the shop and passed the road test, and the customer asked for the brakes to be redone, I would remind him that it was his decision not to follow a professional recommendation up front. It would also have been noted on his repair order, so there was no confusion afterwards. You've previously noted the need to document things on the work order. It is a good idea, and it works both ways.

At no time did I suggest I would make up my own interpretation of warranty without a technical basis for a decision. The challenge is, most customers aren't technical. The ones that are, great. The ones that aren't, and know it, are well worth developing a relationship with. You end up developing trust with those customers. The ones that aren't, but who think they are, were sometimes a challenge to deal with.

If the customer asked me to do something which I judged to be unsafe, I wouldn't do it. If the customer asked me to do something which was safe, but may not be the cheapest for him in the long run, that was fine, that was why we called him the customer, he got to decide. He just didn't always get to later pin the cost of his decisions on the shop.

Is that a business centric view of maintenance? Probably, decades in the business will do that to an individual. Is it wrong? I don't think so. I probably point out the dealer/technical/business side on this forum only because so many posters have such a polarized view from the other side. Are there bad dealers and bad shops? Of course there are. Are all dealers trying to rip you off, as some here suggest regularly? I don't think that is at all fair, and I think members here should realize that there are two sides.

So I gather you didn't like the retread tires example. Fair enough. Retread tires can also be fully within spec, though. In some (limited) applications, I would say there is nothing wrong with them. I don't see a big difference between a retread tire that is slightly lower performing than a new one, and a thin brake rotor that while within spec, will fade faster (particularly in the mountains, or when towing). If it is not a demanding application, both are fine. Personally, I just choose not to use either. Does BMW have a spec about not using retread tires? Not sure. Maybe I should have gone with the Fram filter example.

So what did you do when they wouldn't mount your tires? Go elsewhere? Or convince them?

[cinnamonstick]

I think we are going to buy the extended mat. plan. for $2300. You can do the same ......

60K check up is $1,300 or something..and the 90K miles check up is the same..my computer is saying i will need new front breaks in 14,000 and back in 22,000....

You can still buy the extended mat. plan under 50K miles....6 years or 100,000.....may take some pressure off?


GL!!

[ard]

Originally Posted by JCL

You have never seen a brake rotor that meets the minimum thickness specification, but which has brake squeal due to the surface finish of the rotor after new pads are installed? Ever?

Yes, I'd not reuse these.

Ditto, I'd not reuse these.

This is a great point and one that so many customers do not conceptualize. Indeed, getting to this point takes time, and communication- but can be invaluable for all.

So what did you do when they wouldn't mount your tires? Go elsewhere? Or convince them?[/QUOTE]

It was kind of funny, as they'd already taken the fronts off and could not reinstall without the spacers (the tires rubbed on the strut)... they were somewhat stuck. I said 'remount the old wheels or just mount the new tires'.

They refused to mount the the new tires- put the old wheels back on the front with the 'deadly' 3mm spacers, but did replace the rears. I went home, swapped rears to the front and returned to get the other two mounted again on the rear axle. (I run 275/35-18 on all 4 corners of the M5.) I never went back to that store.

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[ard]

Originally Posted by cinnamonstick

I think we are going to buy the extended mat. plan. for $2300. You can do the same ......

60K check up is $1,300 or something..and the 90K miles check up is the same..my computer is saying i will need new front breaks in 14,000 and back in 22,000....

You can still buy the extended mat. plan under 50K miles....6 years or 100,000.....may take some pressure off?


GL!!

Do keep in mind that the sales people inflate the price of these visits to scare you into buying the maintenance plans. To say the 60k and 90k "service" will be "$1300 or something" is not based on any real truth. IMO

The hidden benefit to the BMW maintenance plan is this: Owners will keep going to the BMW dealership for service AND out of warranty repair! You will be getting screwed by 'super retail' pricing for 'non-maintenance' repairs, and since you've not been developing a relationship with a BMW indy, you will just keep going back to the dealer- like lambs to a fleecing.



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[JCL]

Originally Posted by ard

The hidden benefit to the BMW maintenance plan is this: Owners will keep going to the BMW dealership for service AND out of warranty repair! You will be getting screwed by 'super retail' pricing for 'non-maintenance' repairs, and since you've not been developing a relationship with a BMW indy, you will just keep going back to the dealer- like lambs to a fleecing.

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One could always develop a relationship with the dealer, if there is a reasonable dealer in your city. A radical proposal, but it works for some of us.