CEL came on, code P203a. Active tank replaced. **77k mile update, Passive Tank bad!

[ard]

Disappointing when people do not close the loop with issues like this... everyone wants help, with THEIR issue.... few then 'pay it forward' with at least some info....

[scollins]

Originally Posted by ard

Disappointing when people do not close the loop with issues like this... everyone wants help, with THEIR issue.... few then 'pay it forward' with at least some info....

I finished my post with the follow up.

The question posed recently was to another person (not the OP, me) indicating a similar issue. Maybe they don't have notifications turned on?

[Hbones11]

Originally Posted by scollins

Picked up the X5 today, and thankfully there was no CEL/SES on the dash this time. Here are the comments on the work order:

65647 ACTIVE TANK SENSORS SHORTED INTERNALLY (1) INSPECTED AND VERIFIED THAT THE SES LIGHT WAS ON. (No fucking shit, really?? Did you think I was making it up?) RAN A SHORT TEST TO CHECK FOR FAULTS IN THE CONTROL MODULES. FOUND FAULTS PRESENT IN THE DDE FOR ACTIVE TANK MONITORING ERROR. (2) RAN TEST PLAN FOR ACTIVE TANK AND FOUND THAT THE TANK SENSORS WERE SHORTED INTERNALLY AND REQUIRED REPLACEMENT PER DIAG CODE: D1170 00000000 30 001. (3-5) REMOVED AND REPLACED ACTIVE TANK. (6) TOPPED OFF SCR FLUID. (7) CLEARED FAULT MEMORY. (8) ROAD TESTED AND RECHECKED, FAULT NO LONGER PRESENT





My SA wasn't there today, but the Service Manager was. I asked to speak to him to give him some direct feedback on the whole process. Both my wife and I were in this meeting that lasted about 20 minutes. The net result is that my opinion of BMW Bellevue 's service department is even lower. Says something when the guy in charge of service doesn't even drive a BMW (his own words). My wife's impression of the guy was that he was a complete idiot (her words.) I expressed my concern over trying to deliver a vehicle back to the customer with the CEL/SES still on, and given that a scan of a different module found the errors in the active tank, why weren't they caught before? No real good answer came from the SM. I then asked why if I can read an OBDII code, search the internet, and pinpoint at least the subsystem with the issue why they couldn't do the same? His response was "we ignore what the customer says, as well as OBDII codes. BMW has their own test plans and systems, so that is what we use."



O-M-G! Did you really say you "ignore what the customer says"? Wow, just wow. Hell, at least sugar-coat it and make it sound less patronizing, like "we appreciate the input from our customers and we do our best to implement BMW's test plans and protocols to the highest standards."



I then asked why the error wasn't caught earlier if the technicians followed the protocols in the testing plans, and why the X5 still had the CEL/SES on when I tried to get it earlier. His response can be summed up with:



And he kept asking why we didn't buy the extended warranty, because BMW is less likely to help out customers with "goodwill" repairs if they didn't buy the extended "warranty". What, that doesn't make any sense. Had I bought the extended warranty, they would have just covered everything after the deductible, where would "goodwill" factor into that?



I also said that if BMW can't build a car that can go at least 100,000 miles without THOUSANDS of dollars in repairs (not maintenance, but repairs), then I either need to stop buying BMWs or just lease them and turn them in before the factory warranty expires. He agreed with that statement, saying you shouldn't own a BMW outside of warranty, either factory or extended. Again, that doesn't inspire confidence in continuing to buy the brand when the SM says something like that.



And when the extended "warranty" costs $5,000 just to cover an additional 2 years and 50,000 miles of ownership, how much confidence should I have in the product? He didn't have an answer for that, other than to repeat about not owning one outside of warranty. He then shared a story about having to do a $12,000 warranty repair on his previous M5, and how he was glad he had the extended warranty for that.



There was some additional discussion about training opportunities for their Service Advisors, especially with BMW selling more diesel cars than ever in the US. If your SA's can't tell the difference between SCR (a process) and DEF (a reactant used in the SCR process), they might need additional training.



I walked out of the meeting pretty much just shaking my head.



My final concerns are that the passive tank is going to have the same issue shortly, as it appears they didn't even run a test plan on that unit. So I'm hoping for two outcomes: The passive tank is fine and doesn't have an issue, or if it does, it appears in the next 5,000 miles. If it shits the bed after 100,000 miles, I'll be somewhat OK with that (but only somewhat.) By then, "alternate options" will likely exist....



The X5 goes back in for an oil change in about 1,500 miles. We did buy the extended maintenance contract because that penciled out in our favor vs. the local indy shops for comparable service. I think I'll give BMW Seattle a shot on that service and see how they do. Should be an easy test to pass.....



The last thing I'm going to start doing is refilling the DEF tanks every 4th fill-up. Not sure that will help, but it seems that crystallization of the UREA on the sensors may be a contributing factor. Maybe keeping the tanks topped off will reduce or eliminate that issue.

Wanted to add my story to the list of P203A/P205B CEL issues and add my thoughts.



Bought my 2010 X5 diesel in August 2013, ~58k miles. Started pulling a P2621 code (Throttle Position Output Circuit Low) around June 2014, ~75k miles. Did some research on the code and kept resetting it while driving around with the code until late August. I live in the DC metro area and finally decided to take the car back my uncle's garage in Northeast PA to get his opinion. He immediately told me to look at the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve.



The EGR valve is tedious to remove but after about an hour or so I was able to remove it only to find something similar to the valve in this YouTube video.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQx_...ature=youtu.be



That EGR cleaning was done on a different engine (X3 2.0d with a different CEL code) but the valve is pretty much the same as the 3.5d.

I cleaned my valve, reinstalled, and cleared the codes. The car drove for only a few hundred miles until the P2621 code came back.



Decided to take my X5 to another garage in Northeast PA that specializes in European cars. I told tech about the code and the EGR valve cleaning. He said he would run some tests to check if the EGR valve was functioning properly. Come to find out the valve was toast at ~81k miles.



The EGR valve helps your car more efficiently and completely burn fuel by recirculating a portion of your exhaust and running it through the combustion process again. Since my valve was toast, that made sense to me because I started seeing white DEF residue on/around my tailpipes once the P2621 code started showing up (an issue I've read about on multiple diesel blogs).



Drove the car for another few hundred miles, didn't see any white DEF residue, but had the P203A/P205B codes appear (never had them previously). After consulting a few Technical Service Bulletins, reading similar blog posts, and talking to some diesel techs I have the following thoughts:



1. I have a hunch my P203A/P205B codes are due to any white DEF residue that is lingering in the system.

2. Based on the codes, I think my issue is related to sensors in the active DEF tank. My understanding is the passive DEF tank does not contain any sensors and only feeds the active tank when it drops below a certain level.

3. I do not believe the sensors in the active DEF tank are toast. I've read blog posts about flushing the DEF tank with hot or warm soapy water multiple times. Some posts have confirmed this fixed the P203A/P205B codes.

4. I haven't had a chance to flush my active DEF tank, but if that doesn't work I don't think you are able to buy just the active DEF tank sensors. This would obviously result in me replacing the active DEF tank to fix any sensor issues (if I haven't found any other avenues to pursue).



Here is a link to all the parts that make up the active DEF tank assembly:

Scr container active. Fits: 2010 BMW X Series (E53,E70,E71,E83) X5 3.5d | BMW of South Atlanta



Hope this helps anyone that is struggling with similar issues.

[scollins]

Originally Posted by Hbones11

Wanted to add my story to the list of P203A/P205B CEL issues and add my thoughts.

Bought my 2010 X5 diesel in August 2013, ~58k miles. Started pulling a P2621 code (Throttle Position Output Circuit Low) around June 2014, ~75k miles. Did some research on the code and kept resetting it while driving around with the code until late August. I live in the DC metro area and finally decided to take the car back my uncle's garage in Northeast PA to get his opinion. He immediately told me to look at the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve.

The EGR valve is tedious to remove but after about an hour or so I was able to remove it only to find something similar to the valve in this YouTube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQx_...ature=youtu.be

That EGR cleaning was done on a different engine (X3 2.0d with a different CEL code) but the valve is pretty much the same as the 3.5d.
I cleaned my valve, reinstalled, and cleared the codes. The car drove for only a few hundred miles until the P2621 code came back.

My uncle suggested I take my X5 to another garage in Northeast PA that specializes in European cars. I told tech about the code and the EGR valve cleaning. He said he would run some tests to check if the EGR valve was functioning properly. Come to find out the valve was toast at ~81k miles.

The EGR valve helps your car more efficiently and completely burn fuel by recirculating a portion of your exhaust and running it through the combustion process again. Since my valve was toast, that made sense to me because I started seeing white DEF residue on/around my tailpipes once the P2621 code started showing up (an issue I've read about on multiple diesel blogs).

UN-EFFING-BELIEVABLE!! Here is what code my X5 threw on 11/26/14:



After some Googling, I figured the problem was the EGR/throttle valve based on the error code and symptoms (shudder on shutdown.) Ordered the part from GetBMWparts.com for $375 and went about installing it. Part # 11-71-7-804-384, plus the o-ring #13-54-7-792-098.

The old valve looked like this:


While the valve is a fairly exposed position, getting to the three mounting screws was a bitch. I had to use my 1/4" drive socket with the ball-end of the proper sized Allen wrench that I cut to fit. There was a small support bracket that I could not get back on due to misalignment issues with the screws. It was causing enough deflection that the screw would start to cross-thread. Steel screw into aluminum housing with misalignment = bad juju.

That was at 70,500 miles. I called an independent shop for a quote, and they thought it might actually be covered under an extended "secret" warranty. If not, then the part would be $550 and about 1.5 hours to install ($110/hr shop rate.) When I said I could get the part online for $375, they said that was better than their cost because they have to source parts from the dealer. That was $800 out the door.

I called my current go-to dealer, BMW Seattle, and asked about extended warranties on the part. They didn't show anything based on my VIN, so I said "screw it" and did the work myself. I could have likely taken it in and argued that I was just past the 70,000 miles for the CA Emissions Warranty and gotten it covered, but I was tired from the ordeal with DEF tanks.

Honestly, I blame the government and their "emissions" laws. What engineer would honestly CHOOSE to recirculate dirty, nasty exhaust gas back INTO the intake? Or put on a complex Urea injection system to reduce emissions, but hamper reliability in the long term. I expect the diesel block itself to last damn near forever, it's the government mandated shit-systems that are causing the problem.

And since the lift struts went out in October, to the tune of $1,400 at the Indy Shop, I'm really FED UP with this SAV. I'm all set to dump the thing and just start leasing, but for some reason the wife (it's her car after all) seems content currently. The next time the damn CEL comes on, I might just run the thing into a wall at 60 MPH.....

I'm kidding about that, but I personally am shopping lease deals. Hell, I'd even take another X5, but I'm learning my lesson about owning these "high tech" cars out of warranty. Sadly, I don't think that is limited to just BMW. Even my Toyota Tacoma with "legendary" reliability isn't exactly the model it once was.......

[Hbones11]

Did you see any white DEF residue on or around the tailpipes?

[PGas32]

Originally Posted by Hbones11

Drove the car for another few hundred miles, didn't see any white DEF residue, but had the P203A/P205B codes appear (never had them previously). After consulting a few Technical Service Bulletins, reading similar blog posts, and talking to some diesel techs I have the following thoughts:



1. I have a hunch my P203A/P205B codes are due to any white DEF residue that is lingering in the system.

2. Based on the codes, I think my issue is related to sensors in the active DEF tank. My understanding is the passive DEF tank does not contain any sensors and only feeds the active tank when it drops below a certain level.

3. I do not believe the sensors in the active DEF tank are toast. I've read blog posts about flushing the DEF tank with hot or warm soapy water multiple times. Some posts have confirmed this fixed the P203A/P205B codes.

4. I haven't had a chance to flush my active DEF tank, but if that doesn't work I don't think you are able to buy just the active DEF tank sensors. This would obviously result in me replacing the active DEF tank to fix any sensor issues (if I haven't found any other avenues to pursue).

I agree that the 203/205 codes are most likely related to DEF crust on the sensors. I'll have to flush the tanks out at some point. In the meantime, there seems to be no impact to anything aside from the CEL remaining on.

[Armand]

I also got a P203A Mod $00 today at around 53K on my 2010 X535d. Based on what I have read, the code might not return for a while after it is reset, which makes it hard to get the dealer to proceed with a fix. My question is should I delete the code and see if it comes back before taking it to the dealer?

The old hound has been running into weird problems lately. Hardly any issues up to 50K but recently, a slew of weird things including this.

There is a similar thread on bimmerfest: OBD-II Diagnostic Trouble Code P203A - Page 3 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums

I will update both with my experiences. I have an appointment with my dealer next Saturday. Hopefully the extended warranty will prevent a runaround but if they reset the code and it doesn't come back, I'll be down $200 in diagnostics fees and no resolution. Any guidance appreciated.

[Armand]

Quick update. I deleted the code. CEL went off right away. Drove around for a while, CEL still off. Got some DEF and topped off both tanks. Active tank was almost full, which suggests the issue wasn't crystallization of the active tank sensor. Passive tank took about 3 gallons. No dealer visit for now.

[scollins]

Update on 6/10/15 and 77,000 miles, the Passive DEF tank sensors are now bad and the tank needs to be replaced!

The X5 has been throwing a new code over the past 2 months, P281A. I've cleared it a few times with my Creader VI, and it has mostly gone away for extended periods if I top off both DEF tanks.

The last time it threw the code, I noticed a lot of urea crystals around the filler spout for the active tank. Topped it off and cleaned it up. Shortly afterwards, I was in at BMW Seattle for an oil change, and I mentioned the error codes. They did a scan and came back with this:
"Confirmed SES light on. SCR Passive Tank sensor fault. 4 times. Performed test module. Accessed connector. wiring and signal voltage ok. sensors in tank failed. recommend replace."

Estimate? $2,200 plus tax. OUCH!!!!! And great timing, as we were shopping for a new X5 to replace this one (I called it a ticking time bomb, I waited too long.....)

Well, in working with both BMW Seattle and BMW NA, I got the repair covered at 100%, and promptly placed an order for a 2015 X5 35i. I'm done with the diesel because of the emissions crap that is required to be on it. About the only way I'd consider a diesel again is on a lease that ends before the 4/50k warranty is up.

Naturally the part is not in stock ANYWHERE in the US right now, so it will be a few weeks. I'm guessing it will arrive about the time I go to pick up the new X5.

[Hbones11]

Been a few months since I posted an update on the DEF sensor codes 203/205. I drove around all winter with the CEL on then when warmer weather came around the CEL and codes disappeared. Definitely something temperature related in the tank. Got about 95k miles on mine now. The price of the tank assembly is ridiculous. Curious if anyone thinks I could get BMW to replace my tank/sensor combo at no cost. I read a few posts/articles mentioning BMW had to replace the tank because of EPA regulations. Thoughts?