The issue here of argument was the amount of electricity and clean water now as compared to prior to our invasion of Iraq. So you have someone who claimed that there is more electricity and clean water now and they know this to be true because they were in Iraq and saw it with their own eyes.

To begin with, obviously for them to make such a comparison, they must have been in Iraq prior to the war as well, so I'm assuming he was in Iraq in 2002 as well. Otherwise how you can say there is more now than before?

Assuming even that, how can you tell how much electricity there is by just being there as a soldier? I'm pretty sure you would need to get the figures from the various power plants around the country and add them up. (the council on foreign relations has done this -- that is the information I posted)

Same with clean water. Unless you have some supernatural abilities, I'm pretty sure you cannot tell what percentage of Iraqis are receiving clean water just by being in Iraq. I would rather trust the numbers that are produced by the actual water treatment plans.

As far as how things are going in Iraq, what I do know is that the insurgency in Iraq is in their last throws. As soon as we capture Saddam Hussein the insurgency will fall apart completely. Hrmm....well, for sure as soon as we transfer power to the Iraqis the insurgency will die. Well, certainly as soon as there are free elections in Iraq........Definately as soon as we capture Zarqawi the insurgency will have no leader and the violence will die down.....

Iraqi Death Toll Rose Above 3,400 in July

And now our leaders tell us that Iraq might be headed towards a civil war. I'm no expert, but 3400 dead in one month sounds like civil war to me.

As far as the poll I posted, obviously you know more about the military than I do. I admit that I do not know much about what soldiers go through, etc. So can you please explain to me why such a large percentage of the soldiers could be of the opinion that Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks? All I can imagine is that they were told this by the military, perhaps during their training, as a way to motivate them to defeat the enemy. I'm serious....I really would like to know what you think...this poll is very disturbing to me.

I hate to make another WWII analogy, but have you ever heard ex-German soldiers talk about their experiences? Most of them who were involved in the various invasions were under the impression that they were helping to protect their country. Most of them who invaded Poland were of the false impression that Poland had attacked Germany and the Germans were simply defending themselves. It seems that soldiers can be very easily manipulated with propoganda. They are mostly very young and somewhat naive. At the same time, the military is probably able to control most of the information that they are exposed to. That does not make them bad people. Just to be clear, I surely do respect what they do and the sacrifice they make....I just do not agree with the mission and I think they are being manipulated in the worst possible way -- they are being asked to put their lives on the line and kill, and are being lied to about the real reasons.

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my experience on X5world when I spend too much
time posting in political threads in the lounge...

This so-called Zogby poll...The poll, conducted in conjunction with Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies... Do you still believe EVERYTHING you read in the media??? The "center for peace". Like they wouldn't want to make the soldiers and the mission appear disastrous!!! OMG, this is a liberal, peace-loving poll, what the hell, do you think they couldn't manipulate the results or even make up anything they wanted? Would it be illegal for them to report false numbers? No it would not. Would they do it just because they suck and want to make us look bad? You bet they would!!! EVERYTHING you have ever referenced originates from the liberal media!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not one thing you have ever stated has come from anything but the media!!! All of your spouting holds no water whatsoever. You can't think for yourself and you need the media in your life to base everything you write, speak and think??? Who's the brainwashed one here???

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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming: "WOW! WHAT A RIDE!!"

2007 M6
2018 Chevy 2500HD Diesel Alaskan Edition
2011 X5 35d
1972 Chevy K20 4X4
1972 Ford F-600
1959 Chevy Viking 60 Dump Truck
2015 CanAm Outlander XT 1000

Fight Fight Fight Fight

To back up what I have personnally seen...
From http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplish...ectricity.html
Electricity

Expanding Access to Electricity

In 2002 Baghdad had access to electricity on a near continuous basis while the rest of Iraq was limited to 3 to 6 hours daily. The U.S. government has made significant progress in improving electricity supply in Iraq and distributing it more equitably throughout the country. USAID has added over 1292 MW of new or rehabilitated capacity to the electrical grid.

Expanding Access to Electricity

Restoring and improving Iraq's electricity supply has been USAID's biggest and most costly challenge. In April 2003, Iraq's usable electrical generation capacity was 2,500 MW - 58 percent of the pre-conflict level. Before the conflict, access to power was unreliable and varied greatly throughout the country. USAID is restoring electricity to homes, public facilities, and business throughout Iraq.
USAID has helped increase electrical generation to an average daily peak of approximately 4,500 MW. However, estimated total demand in Iraq is 8,500 MW and the looting of cables, destruction of hightension towers, and sabotage of fuel lines persist. Decades of operation without regular maintenance have resulted in increased breakdown and a need for significant rehabilitation.
ACCOMPLISHMENTS

• Repaired thermal units, replaced/ added turbines, rehabilitated the transmission network, and installed and restored generators.
• Returned to pre-war daily generation levels of 3,958 MW by October 2003 and reached a peak of 4,584 MW during July 2004.
• USAID has added 1292 MW of generation capacity through new generation, maintenance and rehabilitation work, and repaired the 400 KV Khor az Zubayr-Nasiriyah transmission line.
• USAID and partners are rehabilitating or constructing 25 distribution substations in Baghdad to improve the distribution and reliability of electricity for more than two million residents. Eight critical substations were energized early in anticipation of the summer peak.
• USAID has also begun an Operations and Maintenance Program (O&M) at the 19 generation sites throughout Iraq to improve the output and reliability.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming: "WOW! WHAT A RIDE!!"

2007 M6
2018 Chevy 2500HD Diesel Alaskan Edition
2011 X5 35d
1972 Chevy K20 4X4
1972 Ford F-600
1959 Chevy Viking 60 Dump Truck
2015 CanAm Outlander XT 1000

Interesting.....

Last time I checked, the "media" is the total of all publications, television, radio, and every source of information.

I guess you have found my weakness. I do indeed need information in order to form opinions on things. I am unable to form opinions without any information. I guess that makes me a brainwashed fool.


Oh yeah....the stuff I have posted on here is not from the "liberal media". It is from the mainstream media, i.e. the right-wing propoganda machines that sold this war to the American public with their articles about WMDs, mushroom clouds, etc. The liberal media (e.g. truthout.org, Infowars, Pacifica radio, The Nation, American Free Press, etc.) did not spout such garbage.

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my experience on X5world when I spend too much
time posting in political threads in the lounge...

'Cause when there's a cat fight - you know they're going to kiss!

__________________
2010 528Xi
I demand justice.
Or, if there must be injustice, let it be in my favor.

Reynold's Wrap: it's not just for hats anymore.

Now, for the first time, you have made a good, intelligent argument backed with with data.

There are a couple of inconsistancies with the numbers there, but not enough to change the general concept.

For example, if 2500 MW is 58% of pre-war levels, then prewar levels are 4310 MW, not 3958 MW (simple math). But still, that does not change the points made by the report.

Also, keep in mind that the measurement MW refers to capacity, and is not a measure of power used or delivered. Power used or delivered would be MWh (Megawatt hours). What they are reporting is the peak capacity that was reached during the specific month.

I will add a couple of things you may want to consider though:

1) "Pre-war" Iraq was very much destroyed as much of the damage to power plants from the first Gulf War was never repaired due to sanctions. Peak capacity back in 1990 was over 9000 MW.

2) Peak capacity does not equal power being delivered. From what I have read, there have been constant blackouts and power outages all over the country due to insurgent attacks and bombings. While a peak capacity of 4584 MW has been reached, that level of power was delivered for maybe one day.

3) Since my numbers (below) from my "liberal media" source jive with your numbers, I'll assume they are all correct. Your report does not give numbers for after July 2004. I have numbers for the next 9-10 months:

Month: Capacity (average number of hours per day power is delivered)

May 2004: 3902 MW (11 hours)
June 2004: 4293 MW (10 hours)
July 2004: 4584 MW (10 hours)
Aug 2004: 4707 MW (13 hours)
Sept 2004: 4467 MW (13 hours)
Oct 2004: 4074 MW (13 hours)
Nov 2004: 3199 MW (13 hours)
Dec 2004: 3380 MW (10 hours)
Jan 2005: 3289 MW (9 hours)
Feb 2005: 3611 MW (8 hours)
March 2005: 3627 MW (12 hours)
April 2005: 3390 MW (9 hours)
May 2005: 3560 MW (8 hours)

Not much progress being made. And as you can see from the hours per day figure, power is still very unreliable in Iraq.

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my experience on X5world when I spend too much
time posting in political threads in the lounge...

Sorry this article is old, but it brings to light some interesting points:

WashPost link

Bottom line is there is about as much/slightly more power total available. But instead of it being concentrated in Baghdad, it's being distributed more equally across the country. This certainly seems more fair to me than Saddam's system of rewarding his favorites and punishing his enemies.

That, and the focus of effort (at that time) was maintenance of existing systems, as opposed to installation of new.

__________________
2010 528Xi
I demand justice.
Or, if there must be injustice, let it be in my favor.

Reynold's Wrap: it's not just for hats anymore.

That is a good analysis. Keep in mind that not installing new systems was not their decision. They were unable to due to sanctions.

Also, as I said above, pre-war power levels were severely lacking as well. During the 1990s we continued to bomb out most of their power stations. During 2002 we bombed there almost daily. 1990 power levels were double that of the pre-war levels, and back in 1990 they had a much lower population as well.


A very good quote from that article:

"We don't need to have a good president of Iraq. We don't need this new political process. We just need to have power."

As I have said before, people do not care about democracy, politics, etc. They care about goods and services -- quality of life. If the government delivers those things, most people do not care whether it is a democracy or a dictatorship. We should have been focused on that first, and then if we wanted to try to introduce democracy that would have been fine.

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my experience on X5world when I spend too much
time posting in political threads in the lounge...