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  #31  
Old 04-27-2008, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLabGuy
If you notice Wagner in my statement it says nothing about condoning violence. Americans are free to protest and that falls under the term "Social Unrest". I further qualified my support based on the "Methods" used. That would exclude any violence or interference with anyone else's rights in the process.

50 rounds was excessive but then again I was not in the courtroom to hear the details. On the surface it seems excessive. I also did not see a racial element from the mix of the officers. My original point merely pointed out that it would have had a racial aspect had all three officers been white. I'm not sure why others have an issue with that observation based on the history of past events.
OK, I thought you were saying it was "fine" to riot and crap.

Hey, has Al Sharpton gone outside of Duke and done a huge apology yet??? Still waiting on that one.
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  #32  
Old 04-27-2008, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagner
Hey, has Al Sharpton gone outside of Duke and done a huge apology yet??? Still waiting on that one.
I am still waiting on Sharpton to apologize for Tawanna Brawley!!!
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  #33  
Old 04-27-2008, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by statdoc
I am still waiting on Sharpton to apologize for Tawanna Brawley!!!
Don't hold your breath for that one.

Don't hold your breath for him or Jesse Jackson to apologize to the Duke lacrosse players either. I wonder how much Jesse raised for that college fund for the stripper.
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  #34  
Old 04-28-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson X
This is not the first time in recent NYPD history where undercover or plain clothes police officers (white, black or otherwise) were acquited and/or avoided jail time for the death of an unarmed black person where riots did not break out. Demonstrations or protests may have taken place in some instances, but no riots....
Krimson, no question that what happened to Mr. Diallou and the other gentlemen in your post is tragic and a very legitimate source of outrage for the African-American community (and for that matter all Americans). I am ashamed and saddened by these NYPD incidents.

But I think we have 2 qualifiers in the current Bell case which, as tragic as it is, undermines the quest for justice.

1) The African-American community has GOT to come up with a more credible advocate for justice than Rev. Al Sharpton. After the Tawana Brawley fiasco, this man has zero credibility or integrity left. He is not only despised by many whites who otherwise sympathize with the urban injustices against black Americans, but I believe he has alienated many wthin his own community with his hypocritical tirades. He is a publicity-seeker, a demagogue, and quite frankly, a racist.

2) Let's face it: Sean Bell and his buddy Mr. Guzman, and the other fellas that were "hanging out" that night, are not exactly "sympathetic" figures. They all had not-insignificant criminal records, including several felonies. These were not what you would call "good" guys. Of course, this in NO way justifies what happened to these guys that night, nor should this fact exonerate the detectives involved. All I'm saying is, this is not the textbook case that one would use to call for a wide-ranging Congressional inquiry into police misconduct. The Diallou case was much better suited for that purpose.
I mean, technically it shouldn't matter. Bell did not deserve to die that night, and Guzman does not deserve to have 4 bullets lodged in his body. The cops are no more justified in emptying 3 magazines into them than they are into Amadou Diallou. But it helps your case when you have sympathetic figures, and Bell and his posse just do not fit the bill.

Curious to get your take on these 2 qualifiers.

Last edited by StanF18; 04-28-2008 at 04:07 PM.
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  #35  
Old 04-28-2008, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StanF18
Krimson, no question that what happened to Mr. Diallou and the other gentlemen in your post is tragic and a very legitimate source of outrage for the African-American community (and for that matter all Americans). I am ashamed and saddened by these NYPD incidents.

But I think we have 2 qualifiers in the current Bell case which, as tragic as it is, undermines the quest for justice.

1) The African-American community has GOT to come up with a more credible advocate for justice than Rev. Al Sharpton. After the Tawana Brawley fiasco, this man has zero credibility or integrity left. He is not only despised by many whites who otherwise sympathize with the urban injustices against black Americans, but I believe he has alienated many wthin his own community with his hypocritical tirades. He is a publicity-seeker, a demagogue, and quite frankly, a racist.

2) Let's face it: Sean Bell and his buddy Mr. Guzman, and the other fellas that were "hanging out" that night, are not exactly "sympathetic" figures. They all had not-insignificant criminal records, including several felonies. These were not what you would call "good" guys. Of course, this in NO way justifies what happened to these guys that night, nor should this fact exonerate the detectives involved. All I'm saying is, this is not the textbook case that one would use to call for a wide-ranging Congressional inquiry into police misconduct. The Diallou case was much better suited for that purpose.
I mean, technically it shouldn't matter. Bell did not deserve to die that night, and Guzman does not deserve to have 4 bullets lodged in his body. The cops are no more justified in emptying 3 magazines into them than they are into Amadou Diallou. But it helps your case when you have sympathetic figures, and Bell and his posse just do not fit the bill.

Curious to get your take on these 2 qualifiers.
1) Personally, I am not a fan of Al Sharpton. I think he has made some mistakes in judgment, and he should make amends for those. However, as I have stated in earlier posts months ago, Al Sharpton is not the voice for all African-Americans, but he is the voice for those who are unable to speak for themselves. Secondly, Al Sharpton does not interject himself into these situations, he is called upon by those involved. But I believe all so called black leaders have been villified in the public eye. Even MLK was villified by the FBI and J. Edgard Hoover who tagged him as a communists and was called a "hypocrite preacher" and "the most notorious liar in the country" by LBJ. I cannot think of one who has escaped the scorn and strict scrutiny of the public... Not one. So it doesn't matter who the messenger is or which "black leader" raises the issue, IMO.

2) Lady Justice is blind, right.

Last edited by Krimson X; 04-28-2008 at 05:06 PM.
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  #36  
Old 04-28-2008, 05:07 PM
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What's worse is that people will get on the condemnation band wagon without knowing a thing about the issue their supporting. It's laughable without a doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson X
But I believe all so called black leaders have been villified in the public eye. Even MLK was villified by the FBI and J. Edgard Hoover who tagged him as a communists and was called a "hypocrite preacher" by LBJ. I cannot think of one who has escaped the scorn and strict scrutiny of the public... Not one. So it doesn't matter who the messenger is, IMO.

2) Lady Justice is blind, right.
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  #37  
Old 04-28-2008, 05:11 PM
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Very interesting post. And you're right on both points - so is MrLabGuy on a few things.

50 bullets +the fact that someone reloaded when there is no threat.. excessive. There should have been a punishment to the officer who reloaded.

LabGuy - you're right if it was 3 officers, there would definitely be a racial aspect. I don't think it's necessarily right though, because it goes without saying, any officer, no matter the skin color, can feel threatened, and unsafe. Also any of them can be undertrained and overzealous.

Lets keep in mind that there's also a social issue on both sides - some officers have a inferiority complex before they even become police officers - so now they have "power"

Bell and friends were in a questionable neighbourhood - and at least one of them had a questionable background.

No one can justify either side because no one knows what went down, but I think it's safe to say that the officer didn't have to reload and keep firing - I don't care if the ninja says it was to stop the "threat". What did the other 2 see (that fired 4 and 11 shots) that this trigger happy moron did not see?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagner
You would condone violence when someone disagrees with a verdict in a judicial system? Kind of takes the point away of having a society. The only issue I take with this entire case/shooting is the fact that 50 rounds were fired. Regardless of either parties color (you silly racists ). The fact, as I heard it, was that 50 rounds were fired by 3 cops. Again, this means someone reloaded There was no threat present that required 50 rounds be fired. Overzealous, undertrained or moronic police were the reason 50 shots were fired. I for one don't understand why there is any racial undertone to this at all.

Apparently white people and black people are never allowed to mix, and if they do, the terms are 90% racist judging by how fast everyone assumes things are because of the color of your skin
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  #38  
Old 04-28-2008, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson X
1) Personally, I am not a fan of Al Sharpton. I think he has made some mistakes in judgment, and he should make amends for those. However, as I have stated in earlier posts months ago, Al Sharpton is not the voice for all African-Americans, but he is the voice for those who are unable to speak for themselves. Secondly, Al Sharpton does not interject himself into these situations, he is called upon by those involved. But I believe all so called black leaders have been villified in the public eye. Even MLK was villified by the FBI and J. Edgard Hoover who tagged him as a communists and was called a "hypocrite preacher" and "the most notorious liar in the country" by LBJ. I cannot think of one who has escaped the scorn and strict scrutiny of the public... Not one. So it doesn't matter who the messenger is or which "black leader" raises the issue, IMO.

2) Lady Justice is blind, right.

Well there are also a couple who get slammed by blacks: Bill Cosby, Marvin Arrington Sr.

WARNING Tangent/Rant:

I tend to focus on the leaders alive in my time, not ones dead before I hit the planet. (JFK was called a Traitor) . While I understand and accept "learn from history or you are doomed to repeat it" I do not understand why a society would continue to look to the past to find its future. This seems to me like a never ending revolution of constant dredges from the past to vilify or justify actions or words now. I don't follow this thought process. Wright referred to Slaves and Slave owners religions in the present tense "is", am I missing something? Maybe I need to listen with 'rose-tinted ear buds' because I'm not seeing the justification for such words, none at all. This overwhelming acceptance that the majority of whites somehow don't 'understand' the blacks, that is a complete misconception, at least in my life experiences. (which I don't think are too far off the base). Now if there is overwhelming racism out there, as portrayed, then I'm glad I don't see it.
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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

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  #39  
Old 04-28-2008, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagner
Well there are also a couple who get slammed by blacks: Bill Cosby, Marvin Arrington Sr.

WARNING Tangent/Rant:

I tend to focus on the leaders alive in my time, not ones dead before I hit the planet. (JFK was called a Traitor) . While I understand and accept "learn from history or you are doomed to repeat it" I do not understand why a society would continue to look to the past to find its future. This seems to me like a never ending revolution of constant dredges from the past to vilify or justify actions or words now. I don't follow this thought process. Wright referred to Slaves and Slave owners religions in the present tense "is", am I missing something? Maybe I need to listen with 'rose-tinted ear buds' because I'm not seeing the justification for such words, none at all. This overwhelming acceptance that the majority of whites somehow don't 'understand' the blacks, that is a complete misconception, at least in my life experiences. (which I don't think are too far off the base).
Huh!?!

Anyway, I tend to like Cosby and Arrington and Smiley and West and Dyson. "Black Leader" is a tag placed by the media. I have not heard one black person refer to Jessie or Al as their leader. "Black Man... Take me to your leader!" Thats the problem, people rely on man to lead their steps.
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  #40  
Old 04-28-2008, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson X
Huh!?!

Anyway, I tend to like Cosby and Arrington and Smiley and West and Dyson. "Black Leader" is a tag placed by the media. I have not heard one black person refer to Jessie or Al as their leader. "Black Man... Take me to your leader!" Thats the problem, people rely on man to lead their steps.
Don't understand your "Huh" but I do agree with your last sentence.
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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

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