What the hell is going on in France?

[Chris F.]

Anyone have any thoughts on whats going on in France? Anyone have any inside perspectives or relatives there?

I don't know Frances history, nor have I been paying attention to the news...I do know its mainly juveniles who are pissed off at the French gov't because of impoverished areas? Do I have it right?

After the whole IRAQ thing I've never been a fan of France, but what those kids are doing is implorable.

[lanbrown]

Even if the government does regain control, it won’t last. While what the kids are doing is terrible, the government has basically forced them to do it. This could be the start of a civil war.

[motordavid]

CF: From the FWIW Dept., here's the NewYawkTimes 2Cts on the situ...

I have taken the liberty of pasting the succinct stuff,imo. Link is there, too and of course, you can read similar, but possibly diff views, in other papers:

PARIS, Nov. 5 - Nighttime rioting arising from public housing developments continued to rage early Saturday, spreading to the outskirts of more cities and leaving the authorities frustrated by their inability to stop what many are calling France's worst civil unrest since the 1968 student revolts. ...

...Most of the unrest remained confined to immigrant neighborhoods surrounding Paris, where about 100 people were evacuated Friday night from two apartment blocks after an arson attack set dozens of cars alight in an underground garage. Rampaging youths have also attacked property in the southern cities of Toulouse and Nice, and in Lille and Rennes to the north. ...

...Although the police have been unable to stop the violence because of its apparent spontaneity and lack of clear leaders, officials say they have also begun to detect efforts to coordinate action and spread it nationally. In remarks on Europe 1 Radio, the prosecutor general in Paris, Yves Bot, said Web sites were urging youths in other cities to join the rioting. ...

...Many see the violence as a test of wills between Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy and the young, mostly French Arab rioters. Many immigrants and their children blame Mr. Sarkozy for alienating young people with the way he has pressed a zero-tolerance anticrime campaign, which features frequent police checks of French Arabs in poor neighborhoods. But he has ignored calls from many French Arabs to resign, and is keeping up the pressure. ...

Ironically, Mr. Sarkozy, himself a second-generation immigrant, has been one of the loudest champions of affirmative action and of relaxing rules that restrict government support for building mosques.

The government has been embarrassed by its inability to quell the disturbances, which have called into question its unique integration model, which discourages recognizing ethnic, religious or cultural differences in favor of French unity. There is no affirmative action, for example, and religious symbols, like the Muslim veil, are banned in schools.

"The republican integration model, on which France has for decades based its self-perception, is in flames," the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung declared. An editorial in Germany's Süddeutsche Zeitung called the violence around Paris an "intifada at the city gates," a reference to the anti-Israeli uprising by Palestinians. ...


France, too, has offered citizenship to its immigrants, but the process was slower, and many of the Algerians who arrived to work in the wake of their country's bitter war of independence against France were reluctant to take up French citizenship. Not until naturalizations became more common in the 1980's did immigrants and their adult children begin to develop political power.

The country has tried to discourage "ghettoization" by ignoring ethnic or religious differences and emphasizing French identity above all. Until the early 1980's, foreigners needed government approval to form associations, and while there are no restrictions now, the country provides little support for ethnic or religious-based organizations.

But discrimination has flourished behind the oft-stated ideals, leaving immigrants and their French-born offspring increasingly isolated in government-subsidized apartment blocks to face high unemployment and dwindling hope for the future. ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/in...rtner=homepage

BR,md
Ol'[email protected]

[JV]

A picture is worth a thousand words, right?

[Juanted]

Man, this is tough... I really don't know what to say (and, I've re-written this response several times...).

It's difficult to speak objectively of the racial and cultural divides in France and Germany (I know -- I lived there for 8 years) when something like Katrina brings about OUR "ugly little secret." We have huge cultural and racial divides here as well... and it's so unfortunate. Though it is fair to say that we may be more accepting of other cultures, we still struggle with this issue.

Having said that, America is unique in this: You are born here, you're an American. It's that simple. No questions asked. That newborn is a gift to the American culture and our way of life, not the other way around. No other country in the world does that. In most of Europe, at least one of your parents has to be a "native" to be considered a citizen. The kid will grow up in France (or Italy or Germany), be educated there, learn the country's customs and language. But s/he will not be an European citizen until s/he goes through an extensive approval process.

America is a wonderful experiment -- one fraught with faults, difficulties, and shortcomings; but a wonderful experiment nonetheless. And it is one that is difficult -- almost impossible -- to pull off as the French, Germans, Italian, Balkans (I can go on) have realized.

My best wishes to all those involved in that sad situation in France...

Juan

[alpac]

I am from over there and I keep myself up-to-date with French news of course as well as still have most of my family there. First let me tell you that, although these are serious matters, the American medias have made a bid deal out of this, much more than it diserves. They make everybody believes that all Paris, possibly all France, is under riot, burning. You need to understand that this is localised in few northern suburds of Paris. It is like if there were riots in Harlem, New-York. Having said that the situation is serious and it is a slap in the face of Jacques Chirac's government. Chirac's popularity, which has never been very high, is at its rock bottom right now. From some French newspapers articles I have read some believes that these riots are organized by Muslim extremist organizations. That is quite plausible. They use different methods to destabilize western countries, bombs in England and Madrid and possibly organized riots in France. In my opinion the French government and particulrly the French Police needs to show less laxisme. French police has always been good at infiltrating extremism organizations whatever side they are from (Corsican, Basque, Muslim, etc...) but on this particular one they did a very poor job. I would relate that to the poor leadership shown by Chirac in recent years. This guy needs to leave but unfortunatly the French will have to wait for another 18months or so.l

[Chris F.]

Juan: Great post, very eloquently written. We might not have the same tastes in PCs ( ), but you have superb writing style.

JV: You gotta love the beer guy!

[Juanted]

Originally Posted by Chris F.

Juan: Great post, very eloquently written. We might not have the same tastes in PCs ( ), but you have superb writing style.

Thank you, Sir!

(Not that I can't take a compliment or anything, but... well, I write for a living. I should be decent at it. But, thank you.)

Juan

[kirkX5m]

the Sarkozy governement is a tough one. Sarkozy (who a lot of people say will succeed to Chirac) is a man of very little leniency and tough politics. As Ministre de l'interieur (internal affairs I guess would be the transaltion) he cracked down on hooligans and impoverished areas making the police a force to deal with. i go home to paris about once a year. the uneasiness and turmoil is just temporary, itll pass to let calm and order back into the capital.

[Chris F.]

Originally Posted by Kaefer

Thank you, Sir!

(Not that I can't take a compliment or anything, but... well, I write for a living. I should be decent at it. But, thank you.)

Juan

And written is not a word, is it? D'oh, I should have used composed. Oh well! You understood what I meant