im surprised there have not been posts about the Hamas, Israel conflict.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by blondboinsd

NOT to mention he won't even spend money on health insurance for his employees

You keep bringing this up. I'm not too cheap to spend the money. The money does not exist. Do you tell homeless people they are too cheap to buy a house? If my company does better in the future and I can afford to provide health care, then I will. But for now I would have to close the doors on my company and go out of business if that was a requirement.

If you don't want me to post here anymore, then just tell me to get lost. But making fun of me because I don't have as much money as you is uncalled for.

[JCL]

Eric:

I am glad you posted in this thread. It caused me to go look up a few things that you and B-Line posted, to learn more.

At this point, I think you are ahead on points. That may be partly because I don't think that "bombing the living s**t out of them" is any way to achieve peace, and I do think that world opinion matters.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by JCL

Eric:

I am glad you posted in this thread. It caused me to go look up a few things that you and B-Line posted, to learn more.

At this point, I think you are ahead on points. That may be partly because I don't think that "bombing the living s**t out of them" is any way to achieve peace, and I do think that world opinion matters.

JCL,

Do you realize that by supporting Eric's view what you are actually saying is:
The way to get Hamas to stop launching missiles at Israel is to give them military, strategic positions of land.
- This means you are actually rewarding them for their attacks on innocent civilians and children.. Thus further encouraging other hostile and terrorist organizations to conclude that prolonged terrorist attacks will also lead to land rewards in the future.

You don't give a dog a cookie for biting your hand.

Furthermore, as a Jew, as a Zionist, I can tell you, neither the people of Israel or myself could give a flying care about the court of world opinion.

You need to remember that Israel is a country that is largely populated by survivors of the holocaust that no other countries wanted to take in, including the countries that expelled and tried to exterminate them.

So what the Canadians, the French, the Germans, etc. think in regards to the way Israel chooses to defend itself against terrorists who want to push the Jews into the sea is entirely MOOT.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by B-Line

JCL,

Do you realize that by supporting Eric's view what you are actually saying is:
The way to get Hamas to stop launching missiles at Israel is to give them military, strategic positions of land.
- This means you are actually rewarding them for their attacks on innocent civilians and children.. Thus further encouraging other hostile and terrorist organizations to conclude that prolonged terrorist attacks will also lead to land rewards in the future.

You don't give a dog a cookie for biting your hand.

Furthermore, as a Jew, as a Zionist, I can tell you, neither the people of Israel or myself could give a flying care about the court of world opinion.

You need to remember that Israel is a country that is largely populated by survivors of the holocaust that no other countries wanted to take in, including the countries that expelled and tried to exterminate them.

So what the Canadians, the French, the Germans, etc. think in regards to the way Israel chooses to defend itself against terrorists who want to push the Jews into the sea is entirely MOOT.

That is not what I said at all. I said that I found his points interesting, and I had more in common with some of them than with some of your statements. That doesn't mean that I support everything Eric has posted, but I am glad he did post. That's all.

I think that killing civilians with aerial bombardments is an unlikely way to end a conflict. I realize that you don't support that view. I don't believe that your 'Chicago way' will bring peace to the middle east. I don't think that alluding to Arabs as dogs, even indirectly, is helpful.

I do think that the court of world opinion matters. I think that the government of Israel realizes that too.

I am not taking sides in the Arab-Israeli conflict here. But in a debate, I tend to discount arguments that use phrases like 'shit for brains'. I think we can all do better than that.

[ylwjacket]

this has certainly been an interesting debate to follow.

as for health insurance, i know how expensive that is, as a small business guy myself.

owning a small business is not something that many people understand. a few here do, but not most.

oh no - i almost, sort of, agreed with Eric. it is a new year!

[MrLabGuy]

You can't negotiate with terrorists. The violence will never end because Radical Islam preaches death and won't stop because of a peace treaty or cease fire. Until the world realizes Radical Islam and those who preach death and hate need to be eradicated we will have this conflict.

Ask yourself this question:

Would Israel continue to attack the Palistianians if they accepted Israel and ceased the violence against them? The answer is NO.

Would Hammas and the Palestinians continue to attack and hate Israelis if they stopped attacking the Palestinians and Hammas? The answer is Yes.

There you go. Israel has every right to defend itself from the constant threat to their sovereignty and the only way to do this is to eradicate that threat. It comes down to Kill or be Killed.

[pski215]

from a DJ forum I post on where a member posted a blog regarding anti- Israel rallies.

Dear Friend,

In the first 24 hours of the murderous Israeli assault against Gaza, more than 280 Palestinians--including 20 children under the age of 16--were killed and at least 644 were wounded according to Gaza health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain. As the air assault continued, the Associated Press reported that "Israel's Cabinet authorized the military to call up 6,500 reserve soldiers for a possible ground invasion and moved tanks, infantry and armored units to the Gaza border."

Please forward this email widely, email [email protected] with details of any other events, and check www.answercoalition.org/ for updates.

Stop the Massacre of Palestinians!

Emergency Demonstrations

See below for an updated listing of demonstrations

Hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza have been massacred and wounded yesterday and today in Israel's massive bombing campaign against the people of Gaza. The bombing rampage began as thousands of Palestinian children were in the streets on their way home from school. Palestinian parents were running frantically in the streets looking for their children as U.S.-provided F-16s and Apache helicopters rained down more than 100 bombs and missiles on Gaza.

The U.S.-backed Israeli Occupation Force destroyed every security station in Gaza. AFP reported: "There was no space left in the morgue and bodies were piled up in the emergency room and in the corridors, as many of the wounded screamed in pain."

"Because of the U.S.-backed Israeli blockade and strangulation of the people of Gaza for the past 18 months there is little or no medicine to treat the wounded, electricity for hospitals, or food or clean water for much of the population.

An Israeli military spokesperson said, "The operation is 'only just beginning'." The Israeli Defense Ministry said in a statement: "The action will continue and will widen as much as is demanded according to the evaluation of the situation by the high command of the army."

Take Action:
- Demonstrations Across the Country"


-------------------------------------
I have numerous issues to what was stated in this blog and felt the need to post it and explain my grievances.

After reading the first two sentences I see two discrepancies, "In the first 24 hours of the murderous Israeli assault against Gaza, more than 280 Palestinians" This statement is putting forth that Israel is trying to murder Palestinians. My issue with this is that out of the "280" originally killed and to this day over 90% killed were fanatical Hamas operatives, organizers, financial supporters, and rocket launchers. This is not stated.

"Stop the Massacre of Palestinians!" I love this statement by people who have not witnessed this first hand, what about the innocent Israelis in Ashdod, Ashkelon, Sderot, and Beer Sheva who run to bomb shelters every day... I have run to the bomb shelters and seen the explosions, have you?


"Hundreds of Palestinians in Gaza have been massacred and wounded yesterday and today in Israel's massive bombing campaign against the people of Gaza."

Again with the massacre talk? Really? Against the people of Gaza, okay let me get into how I feel about this statement. The people of Gaza that are claimed to be oppressed only by the EVIL Israelis... Israel had not even stepped foot on Gaza for over three years yet rockets were still being launched into Israel every day, if Mexico launched rockets into Texas every day would you not be upset and just say it is okay Mexico we understand why you try to kill our civilians during a cease fire and we will give you the rest of our country?

Israel is obviously after Hamas targets, if they were not they could of destroyed Gaza with one bomb, we all know the Israeli government is capable of this.

"The U.S.-backed Israeli Occupation Force destroyed every security station in Gaza. AFP reported: "There was no space left in the morgue and bodies were piled up in the emergency room and in the corridors, as many of the wounded screamed in pain."

Security stations used to stock pile weapons that will eventually be used to kill Israeli civilians??

"Because of the U.S.-backed Israeli blockade and strangulation of the people of Gaza for the past 18 months there is little or no medicine to treat the wounded, electricity for hospitals, or food or clean water for much of the population."

I really love this statement, the Israeli blockade is also enforced by Egypt which by chance is an Arab sate. What does that tell you? Me personally it tells me there has to be a good reason. For the past 18 months, hm I wondered what happened around that time. If I recall correctly Hamas became the government of Gaza and kept launching Qassam, Keytusha, and Grad rockets into Israel even throughout the six month cease-fire. "Little or no medicine to treat the wounded." What does the author of this article expect Israel to always give Gaza aid which YES they have done as I have went on a mission to the Gaza border over the summer when I was in the first weeks of basic training for the IDF. I dont see the Hamas leaders living in poverty, why cant they supply the Gazans with aid? What about Arafat's wife, after all she lives in Paris and gets over $1,000,000 a month. Wait the wife of the original Palestinian leader does not live with her people?! What about all of Arafat's personal bank accounts which is where all the funds for Gaza went and yes I can confirm this.



An Israeli military spokesperson said, "The operation is 'only just beginning'." The Israeli Defense Ministry said in a statement: "The action will continue and will widen as much as is demanded according to the evaluation of the situation by the high command of the army."

I do not know what to say about this except that it is necessary until rockets stop and I will back Israel on every action taken.



Now this post may seem like I am a 100% Zionist and want this war however, I do not want this war but it is necessary. Three years ago when israel completely handed Gaza over I was for this action because I thought peace would occur however it did not and now I regret Israel doing so because Hamas was able to stock up on weapons. I view the whole situation as objectively as possible and want there to be peace in the region ( ideally ending like "Don't Mess With the Zohan") however I know this is currently not realistic due to Hamas's idea that they can provoke Israel and not get their asses handed to them, if they would agree to stop firing rockets I know Israel would at that instant stop bombing and Palestinians could rebuild.

Happy New Year.


P-Ski

[ylwjacket]

here's a basic quesiton, which maybe should i should know the answer for, but i don't:

why do they shoot rockets over the border into israel in the first place? wouldn't it be to provoke some reaction?

it seems to me that, if they would quit that crap, it would be a realtively peaceful coexistence. instead, they choose to do that, and act like they are outraged when israel finally has enough, and reacts.

is someone in canada was lobbing rockets into across the border and killing our citizens for the hell of it, i would think we first demand their government do something about it. if their government leaders were behind it, they should probably seek cover, because i would think we would hold them responsible.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by ylwjacket

here's a basic quesiton, which maybe should i should know the answer for, but i don't:

why do they shoot rockets over the border into israel in the first place? wouldn't it be to provoke some reaction?

it seems to me that, if they would quit that crap, it would be a realtively peaceful coexistence. instead, they choose to do that, and act like they are outraged when israel finally has enough, and reacts.

Ylyjacket, the Palestinian groups that represent the people do not now nor have they ever wanted lasting peace in the region. Quite the contrary. The want the full and total destruction of the Jewish state of Israel.

That is why they attacked Israel collectively in 1948. That is why they prepared to attack Israel in 1967 but were thwarted with a preemptive strike and that is why they again attacked on the Yum Kippur war. (That attack was on the highest of Jewish holidays. Like attacking NYC on Christmas Eve.)

The Arab-Israeli conflict is not now and has never been about lands seized during war. The conflict is now and continues to be about one thing: The existence of a Jewish homeland: Israel.

There was no West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza occupation in 1948 when the Arab coalition attacked. And the war that was about to start in 1967, there was also no issue on East Jerusalem, Gaza, West Bank, etc.

Two wars were started with Israel in an effort to destroy it long before there was Israeli occupation of Palestinian military positions.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by ylwjacket

it seems to me that, if they would quit that crap, it would be a realtively peaceful coexistence.

Comparable statement:

If the slaves stopped misbehaving, then the owner would not beat them and they could live in peace.



The Palestineans want their own country. They do not want to "live in peace" under Israeli rule. You guys keep mentioning how the Israelis withdrew from Gaza, as if that should make everything better. But they did not grant Gaza independence from their rule. Israel's position is that Gaza is still their land and they can do what they wish with it. Until they give that land back, there will be no peace.


Someone made reference to the fact that there was no peace BEFORE Israel took those lands. Yes, that is true. But Israel has since made peace with Egypt. The peace plan I posted above has been approved by all of the Arab countries, including both Hamas and the PLO. All of them have agreed to acknowledge Israel's existance and have normalized relations with Israel. The only party that has yet to agree is Israel.

If your position is that you don't believe the Arabs, and that they cannot be trusted to sign any peace agreement, then you are saying that you will not negotiate with them and thus war is the only option. But as I said above, unless you are prepared to kill all 1.5 million people in Gaza, war will not succeed. It will simply further anger those who survive the war. And if this is your position, you are also thumbing your nose as the 2 peace agreements that Israel has made in the past -- those with Egypt and Jordan, because as far as I can see, both of those countries (who are Arab) kept their word and have honored the agreements.

So you basically have 2 options on the table:

1) negotiate peace
2) genocide

Any other course of action will simply continue to the status quo.