im surprised there have not been posts about the Hamas, Israel conflict.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by JCL

I think that killing civilians with aerial bombardments is an unlikely way to end a conflict.

I agree. I've also never interpreted any attack by Israel that I can think of off hand to be a direct aerial bombardment of civilians.

And if you hide your rockets and your terrorists in schools then unfortunately, innocent civilians are going to get killed in the collateral.

I don't know and have never advocated unrestricted and civilian targeted bombings.

But if you keep dropping bombs on the leaders, on the terrorists, on those hiding the leaders and the terrorists, you're going to take out the leadership and things will be relatively quiet until new leadership forms.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by B-Line

I've also never interpreted any attack by Israel that I can think of off hand to be a direct aerial bombardment of civilians.

Do you suppose for a moment that the civilians being bombed have the same opinion?

Originally Posted by B-Line

I don't know and have never advocated unrestricted and civilian targeted bombings.

So restricted bombing that still kills civilians is OK? What are acceptable collateral losses?

All I am saying is that there is more than one side to this.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by JCL

Do you suppose for a moment that the civilians being bombed have the same opinion?

Of course not! When Israel bombs the 4-story apartment building where a Hamas leader lives and kills most of the people who live there including 9 of his children (this happened earlier today), they were not intentionally bombing civilians. But when a Palestinean suicide bomber blows himself up half a block away from an Israeli leader and kills 35 civilians, then he was intentionally trying to kill civilians (not the Israeli leader). Double standard? Of course not! Palestineans are evil terrorists and Israelis are good.

Here is a large poll that was taken of the Palestinean population a couple of months ago:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...eace_2008.html

What you'll notice is that the large majority does not agree with the Hamas stance that Israel must be destroyed. Most also say they support the peace process. However, the majority do support attacks on Israel.

Apparently they believe the best chance for peace is to continue to attack Israel. Do you find it strange that they believe that?

I don't find it strange, because polls of Israelis show the same exact viewpoint. Most say they support the peace process, but most support the current bombing of Gaza.

Idiotic to say the least. But that is how people think. And until one side figures out that such a strategy will not work, there will continue to be fighting.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by JCL

Do you suppose for a moment that the civilians being bombed have the same opinion?

So restricted bombing that still kills civilians is OK? What are acceptable collateral losses?

All I am saying is that there is more than one side to this.

Do you mean the civilians in Gaza that are being bombed? Or do you mean the civilians in Israel that are being bombed (rocketed)?
- Cause if there was a lessor of two evils I would say that Israel that is seeking military targets is the lesser evil. Whereas the Hamas rockets are being launched intentionally into civilian populations with the intent of killing civilians..

Yes, restricted bombing that kills civilians is okay, especially if the leaders of the groups attacking Israel are intentionally hiding behind their civilians to try to win the war of public opinion.

Accepted collateral losses should be minimized as much as possible, while allowing Israel to exterminate the terrorists who continue to attack it. If someone were to say, killing any more than 10 is unacceptable, then Hamas would hide behind 20. If someone said that 20 dead is unacceptable, then Hamas would hide behind 40.

And while I agree with you, there is more than one side to the issue. There is always more than one side to an issue. But sometimes you gotta pick a side. And for my money, I'm going to pick the side of the small country that keeps getting attacked by it's neighbors in an effort to destroy it.

And while I try to remember that there is a large number of people, the Palestinians who are going through very, very, very tough and horrible times, they will never see my support as they continue to attack Israel and it's civilians in war after war after war..

There is a long history of violence against Jews in the Middle East and I believe those Jews have the right to defend themselves. And they don't need to give land to people who keep attacking them. They were getting attacked by the same people long before the new map of 1967...

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by B-Line

And while I try to remember that there is a large number of people, the Palestinians who are going through very, very, very tough and horrible times, they will never see my support as they continue to attack Israel and it's civilians in war after war after war..

So let's suppose that the Palestineans were to stop attacking Israel. Would you then support their independence? And if so, what sort of solution would you support?

Or is this the case of "If the slaves stopped misbehaving, then the owner would not beat them and they could live in peace." - meaning it doesn't matter how they act, no independence no matter what. What is your opinion on that issue?

[pski215]

here is something I have written to a a Palestinian support group on Facebook.

Hello everyone of this group, I am an Israeli American and have joined this group for discussion not for hate, as far as I am concerned I do not hate any Palestinians. I feel the pain of the Palestinian people because we too have had many civilians killed. The majority of Israelis just want PEACE in the world we deserve a chance to live just like the Gazans and I sympathize with the fact of all the suffering. However the blame cannot be placed only on Israel. There are many reasons for this such as Israel's proposed two state solution being shot down, Egypt also blockading Gaza (many people do not know this), Jordan has also denied claim to the West Bank yet Israel has proposed for Jordan to control the West Bank. As I have said I feel the pain of the Palestinian people but you also have to understand our pain. We are good people just as you are yet corporations and criminals ruin our societies. The leaders of Hamas currently being targeted by the Israeli military claim Israel is the enemy but why were they firing rockets at Israel during a cease-fire when Israel was using no military force on Gaza what so ever. Why do the Hamas leaders have food on their table every night while the rest of Gaza does not? Why does Hamas not construct schools instead of build rockets and proclaim hate on Israel and the US? I am not trying to turn you against your own people but instead of protesting Israel would it not be better to have Hamas agree to a cease fire and make sure they follow it? then the air strikes stop and blockade would be lifted as long as a international order was put in place. Israel is not targeting civilians like many people say, if Israel wanted to kill civilians they could have dropped one bomb and destroyed Gaza and we all know the Israeli government has that kind of power. The Israeli people are as terrified as the Palestinian people, believe me on this. I have run to the bomb shelters, I have seen the blasts first hand. I have lost friends and family too and I feel both sides need of the argument need to make sure they do what is best for their people don't you agree?

please do not post hateful comments or delete my posting I am not here for hate I am here to find out what we can do to one day have peace.

eric you cease to realize how many times Israel has proposed a two state solution and been shot down.

[B-Line]

Yes, I do support a two state solution.

Although I haven't done enough research on the matter to present a version that I support. I'll try to do some research on the subject and will get back to you.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by pski215

eric you cease to realize how many times Israel has proposed a two state solution and been shot down.

I can tell by the tone of this statement that you still completely misunderstand my position on all of this. Don't talk to me like I am a Palestinean who wants Israel pushed into the Sea. That is not even close to who I am or what I support.

I don't really care about what happened in the past. It is irrelevent. What Palestinean and Israeli leaders who are now dead did 40 years ago means little to the Palestinean and Israeli people who are alive today. The future starts today. The goal should be to do what is best today regardless of what happened yesterday.

And it is my strong opinion that the best chance for peace is for Israel to work out a solution with the other Arab countries which have influence over Hamas and the PLO and have the ability to pressure them to go along with a peace treaty. The problem with trying to negotiate an agreement directly with the Palestineans is that they do not currently have a single power structure, and thus nobody can speak for all of them. So if you work out an agreement with the PLO, maybe Hamas will not go along. And if you work out an agreement with Hamas, then maybe Islamic Jihad does not go along.

And as you may or may not know, there is often fighting between these various groups. It is difficult to negotiate a peace treaty with a group that is in middle of a civil war themselves and cannot even figure out a peaceful solution for themselves.

Thus, the best solution for Israel is not to attack these groups or attack the Palestineans in general, regardless of their behavior. All it will do is increase support for these extremist groups that already have too much support among the population there. Israel's best solution is to work out a deal with the other Arab countries. Once Israel is able to normalize relations with the other Arab countries, groups like Hamas will no longer get any simpathy from the Arab world and will be forced to comply with any treaties.

[B-Line]

But Eric,

Therein lies the problem. If the PLO and Hamas and the Arab Jihad can not collectively agree to recognize a Jewish state than there is no opportunity for any solution.

Israel can not make agreements with one group while the other group continues to attack Israel.

As far as the other Arab countries, Iran for example. Do you think if a two state solution is solved with 2 out of 3 of the terrorist groups leading Palestine that Iran will not continue to support the group that continues to wage war on Israel.

The entire contingency of a two state solution need to be hinged on the universal and unconditional acceptance of the state of Israel by it's Muslim neighbors. It can not be resolved, group by group. Especially when a huge percentage of those groups wants NO ISREAL, not now, not in the future, not EVER. Even Hamas said it will only sign a 10 year truce in exchange for a two state solution, but after that 10 years it's the problem of the next generation without accepting Israel.

As far as not attacking the Palestinians in General, they are COUNTER attacking. Israel should not now and should not EVER let attacks on it's civilians go unanswered. They must retaliate and they must retaliate times ten. The last time Jews turned a blind cheek, they were massacred by their neighbors in the range of six million.

Once the Arabs can control themselves, once they can collectively agree to diplomacy, then it's time to try to resolve a two state solution. But until the left hand and the right hand and the head and the legs are all working together, there is no reason Israel should not defend itself using ALL means necessary.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by B-Line

As far as the other Arab countries, Iran for example. Do you think if a two state solution is solved with 2 out of 3 of the terrorist groups leading Palestine that Iran will not continue to support the group that continues to wage war on Israel.

I think if there is a Palestinean state, then any extremist group that does not support it will end up as irrelevent as the KKK is in America. A more likely posibility is that once there is a Palestinean state, all of these groups will not only be accepting of it, but they will want to be part of the government.

Originally Posted by B-Line

The entire contingency of a two state solution need to be hinged on the universal and unconditional acceptance of the state of Israel by it's Muslim neighbors.

The agreement I posted a link to above was agreed to by all of the Arab countries and by Hamas and the PLO. They all agreed to normalize relations with Israel. The only significant Palestinean group that did not agree to it was Islamic Jihad -- a group which has less than 10% support among Palestineans.

Originally Posted by B-Line

Once the Arabs can control themselves, once they can collectively agree to diplomacy, then it's time to try to resolve a two state solution.

As I said above, they have agreed and have presented Israel with a proposal. Nobody ever said it was a "take it or leave it" proposal. If Israel does not like it, let them make some adjustments and offer a counter-proposal. But they have not done that. They have simply ignored it.