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  #11  
Old 11-30-2008, 01:47 PM
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Here are a couple more threads that relate to this issue:

http://www.xoutpost.com/x5-e53-forum/...lp-please.html?

http://www.xoutpost.com/x5-e53-forum/...e-starter.html?

CMyX5Go: Lots of travelling, but I am checking in now and then. Couldn't miss out on an engine thread.

Jeff
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2008, 05:34 PM
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JCL,

thank you for the links, after checking through them, I still have to ask this.

The best way to get the sharp answer would be giving some details of the question, so here are the key points.

a) Harsh winter starts in November (December last 2 years) and ends up in April here (March last 2 years), with the temperature fluctuation between zero to minus 45C.

When it comes to below than -25C, you have to get your engine somewhat warm during the night (or a business day if its long enough) if you plan to drive once you're out, b.c. lower temp drains your battery and solidify oil almost no matter of its index (except maybe only those zero indexed).


b) My office is 5 km (3.5 miles) away, so its 10 km daily; plus extra 6 km there and back to gym, making it 3 cold engine starts a day.

It means the car will warm up by the minute I get to the office or to the gym, having got a cold


So what do I have left? Not that much.

Webasto is not an option since it imposes a risk of not starting your engine due to the battery discharge (webasto+low temp). All of us know that if your car cold revvs below 30C without aux help - it is a great luck and gratitude to the engine, because low temp is a mighty beast to shot the battery, alone.

To me, only TLC 105 with a pair of 100Ah batteries did it for me (as it did it yet below -40C BTW), among a plenty of those JDM cars I had for last 10 years.

Common knowledge for webasto usage limits it to run it only once a day for 30 mins, and drive fair enough (at least 30 mins) to recharge battery, otherwise, you will have your battery ended up in a week.

Due to the short mileage, there will be no chance to recharge the battery even if use webasto once a day, as I need at least 30 minutes of run once the motor is start (as stated in many forums), unless I will drive round my office for another 20 minutes

BTW, this is also needed to vaporize the condensate from CVV tube to prevent its build up - maybe there's some other way, like regular change of CVV+tube for a new one, or else?


Distant autostart would be the compromise solution - I waste gas, decrease the engine lifecycle (not even noticeable for several years) as it warms up slower, the liquids are warmed inconsistently and I have to warm the tranny for another 1 minute manually, not to say about ecology factor, but I have warm car with a proof-charged battery.


My experience with JDM cars advocates this to be the balanced recipe.

But its different when it comes to BMW - not only about cold starts, its about CVV issue also (it will not vaporize on idle warming ups only, I have to give it a load each time its started which means sleepless nights and/or discrete work when its below -25, and it could be quite often).

Of course, I can go for an AGM battery and try setting webasto to warm the engine as well (still it will heat only a coolant - though on a large circle - not the oil) - but will it still be enough to be sure the battery and CVV won't fail me during all winter?

... Or should I sell the car and buy Cayenne, which doesn't have that tricky issues?

Last edited by Sergey77; 11-30-2008 at 06:06 PM.
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2008, 11:05 PM
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Sergey77:

Lots of questions there, so I will throw my $0.02 in and let others add to it:

1) Assume there is no chance of an electric plug-in for your vehicle in either parking location. It there is, I would use a battery blanket (like a heating pad) to ensure enough cold cranking amps. You can add an in-car heater to it as well, for comfort.
2) You should be OK with 5-30 oil (full synthetic) as the cold cranking test (ASTM D5293) is at -30C, the pumpability test (ASTM D4684) is at -35C. You could go to 0-30 oil in those temperatures quite comfortably, in my opinion. If the vehicle won't turn over, you have heavier oil or a weak battery. Buy a stronger battery.
3) The short trips are brutal on the engine in those temperatures. Idling it to warm the engine will just make that worse. If you have to drive those short trips, make sure you maintain the crankcase ventilation system (oil separator). Have it cleaned out every year. If the white/grey paste is showing up under the oil filler cap, flush the engine with clean oil and get the engine good and hot by driving it, then change the oil again.
4) The Webasto is a good system, and should have a circuit in it to confirm battery voltage. If it is flattening the battery then set the timer differently. It doesn't use the battery for heat, simply for the circulating pump and the timer.
5) Not sure what JDM means. Japanese Domestic Market?
6) You can use a remote starter. As you point out, it is hard on the engine. You would need to maintain the crankcase ventilation valve and associated lines regularly, and change the oil more often.

There is no single answer. I wouldn't go with the Porsche, but that is just me. Any car can have challenges at those temperatures, and in those driving conditions. You seem to have a good sense of what those challenges are.

Good luck.

Jeff
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  #14  
Old 12-01-2008, 01:45 AM
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Jeff,

I'm just unaware on the timing issue of those challenges for BMW - to your experience, how often would I have to diagnose and change the oil separator granted autostart usage, say, each day during 4 months, every 2 hours for 15 min?

Also, they changed the separator placement from below the engine (on M62) to its top (on N62), and probably modified it - maybe it was the cure? Or no?

In regards to the questions,

1) Don't have it anywhere

2) When using 0W.., there is a chance of blowing the engine on high revs due to the rupture of its fair thin film, causing metal engine parts contact each other without a proper lubrication.

At least, BMW recommends 5W30 for my N62.

I was a Honda fan somedays and the only models that were officially instructed to use 0-viscose oils were S2000 (with its 9000rpm redline) and NSX, both with a definitely high compression ratio and extremely small clearances, between, for instance, cylinder wall and a piston.
Zero indexed oil was the case for engine shots when using on engines with lower tolerances, as discussed widely over the Internet.

Or I may be misleading something.

3) Thank you, noted. But again, why do you believe that, say, 90C of the engine after 15-20 mins of idling are lower than 90C on load, being insufficient to vaporize that condensate from the CVV tube?

4) I will check with officials, as there have been a number of threads reporting this problem.

5) Yep.

6) How often do I have to maintain it?



Just for the offtop record - what's wrong with Cayenne?

Last edited by Sergey77; 12-01-2008 at 12:28 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12-02-2008, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergey77
Jeff,

I'm just unaware on the timing issue of those challenges for BMW - to your experience, how often would I have to diagnose and change the oil separator granted autostart usage, say, each day during 4 months, every 2 hours for 15 min?

Also, they changed the separator placement from below the engine (on M62) to its top (on N62), and probably modified it - maybe it was the cure? Or no?

In regards to the questions,
The oil separator can go for a year without an issue, in my opinion. Many have posted that they have had problems after several years of not maintaining the oil separator. If you clean it after a year and there is no clogging, stretch the interval longer next time.

You don't need to just worry about the oil separator. You need to change the engine oil more frequently, and accept higher wear on the engine from the cold starts.

Quote:
2) When using 0W.., there is a chance of blowing the engine on high revs due to the rupture of its fair thin film, causing metal engine parts contact each other without a proper lubrication.

At least, BMW recommends 5W30 for my N62.

I was a Honda fan somedays and the only models that were officially instructed to use 0-viscose oils were S2000 (with its 9000rpm redline) and NSX, both with a definitely high compression ratio and extremely small clearances, between, for instance, cylinder wall and a piston.
Zero indexed oil was the case for engine shots when using on engines with lower tolerances, as discussed widely over the Internet.

Or I may be misleading something.
I don't agree. There is no risk to the engine from using 0-30 in a cold climate, if you let the engine warm up properly, avoiding high revs until the engine is at full operating temperature. The 0 refers to how the oil acts at low temperatures, the 30 refers to how it acts at higher temperatures. Thus, a 0-30 and a 5-30 will act the same once the engine is up to temperature. The 0 just gives you better pumping at low temperatures, and thus easier cranking.

Quote:
3) Thank you, noted. But again, why do you believe that, say, 90C of the engine after 15-20 mins of idling are lower than 90C on load, being insufficient to vaporize that condensate from the CVV tube?
Getting the engine hot won't get the condensate out of the CVV tube. It will boil the moisture out of the engine oil. Over time, the moisture in the engine oil condenses in the tube. Once it is there, only cleaning out the CCV and/or replacing the tubes will fix it, high engine temperature doesn't make it better. 15-20 minutes of idling won't get the engine hot, whereas 15-20 minutes under load will do so. Your questions are focusing only on the crankcase ventilation valve, and I would worry just as much about the rest of the engine.

Quote:
4) I will check with officials, as there have been a number of threads reporting this problem (with the Webasto heater).
You don't need to run the heater continuously, just prior to starting the vehicle. If the battery is going down from running the timer and circulating pump, then run the heater for less time. The heat comes from the fuel in the Webasto, not from the battery, so it doesn't have a high battery draw.

No armwrestle on the Porsche, if you like it go for it. Do they have an Arctic package for it?
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Last edited by JCL; 12-02-2008 at 12:52 AM.
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  #16  
Old 12-02-2008, 09:37 AM
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+1 on the engine blankets.

I've used them on piston powered airplanes when flying to the "Great White North" (turbine airplanes don't need them). Without them being plugged in, they have kept engines warm for eight hours in the -20 to -30 F range. By warm I mean they are still warm to the touch. These blankets work just like a pizza delivery cover.

I think you may be pleasantly surprised if you just throw a thick blanket over the hood of a warm engine, cover the wheel wells, the grill and hood vents.

Of course you may get some funny looks if your seen "tucking" your X5 in @ the gym. Try it at home and see what your result is. I suggest if you have an old sleeping bag, the kind that zips all the way open to a square blanket (not the mummy type).

Or you could just move here to South Carolina.
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  #17  
Old 12-02-2008, 04:57 PM
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Come on guys,

I don't live in the North Pole

Blankets are prone to be used on older cars but not on 2005+.

Moreover, blanket might cause the termostat malfunction leading to the engine overheat (after a fair engine load).

Jeff,
Using the Webasto for a shorter time periods seem to be a good idea, I have to check its minimum. If its 5 minutes, then I'm likely to go for it.

And if you're right with the timing of CCV problem (one year), it seems to be much lesser problem than appeared.

And once this factor is covered for a a shorter intrerval, there's still some room to think about a distant start, as it only consumes more gas, more time to get warmed, more scale on cylinder walls and exhaust system and probably lambda damage (pls correct me if I'm wrong with the latter).



Steve,

apart from a termostat injure risk (which I faced when using a modern termo-isolating material under the hood on my Honda Prelude in 2003 - on warmer winter days the coolant temperature was way higher than normal), I'm too lazy to change it depending on the weather .

I believe $50K is more than enough to expect comfort with just using a car, without such manipulations.

Thank you for the invitation, I visit LA and Frisco each day for business trips, and Calif might be the best place for a living (especially in Orange County-like areas).

All year round summer is great but it shoud be snowy in the New Year!

Last edited by Sergey77; 12-02-2008 at 05:38 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12-02-2008, 05:10 PM
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This is good info.. Oh JCL..JDM means Japanese Domestic Model. Like USDM is US Domestic Model. Same thing...

Good thread..
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  #19  
Old 12-02-2008, 09:17 PM
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I have to chime in from Alaska, as it is -30 F (-35C) outside right now...

I have always, and always will, let a car warm up for 10-20 minutes if it has been left outside in extreme cold conditions.
JCL is correct in everything he says about idling a car being hard on it.

But, just driving a car in extreme cold conditions is hard on it. Grease seals are stiff, hoses are cold and hard, gear oil is thick (even synthetic gear oil), etc.

All 80,000 people here where I live feel that letting a car warm up prior to drive off is an acceptable trade off.

There are a couple of other considerations to not letting a car warm up:
-no heat is available to defrost the windows. They will start to fog up as soon as you get in.
-you are putting a load (remember, the whole drivetrain is cold and stiff, it takes more power to go the same speed at -40 than it does at 80F) on the engine and transmission when they are in an extreme cold state.
-you are going to freeze your a** off!!

My X5 lives in a heated garage and rarely needs to be cold started. It is equipped with silicone oil pan and transmission pan heaters, so it can be plugged in if it is outside and power is available. It has been left out overnight at -30 or -40 twice, and it started each time. It didn't like it, but it started. I use either BMW 5W-30 or Mobil 1 0W-40 oil in it.
If you have good synthetic oil in your engine, it will start at cold temps. the pour point on these oils is about -55F. Of course, it is VERY hard on the engine to cold start it like that, so its always better to have it pre-heated somehow.

As far as why BMW makes a big deal about not idling their engines, I have no idea. There is nothing 'special' about the engines that I can see that would preclude safe idling.
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  #20  
Old 12-03-2008, 12:33 AM
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Listen to the guys from Alaska, they live with it. I was in the Yukon and NWT, and only went to Alaska for vacations (the full length of the Alaska Highway, with detours to Skagway, Chicken, Dawson City, etc).

I would put a priority on being able to see, so if the windows were fogged I would wait. None of this stuff can be taken to an extreme. The thinking on the stiff seals, gear lube, etc, is that engine heat will have little effect on remote components. It all comes down to minimizing the warm up time, and believing that the faster it warms up, the better. It is still a judgement call, and I had to let my vehicles idle more than a few times.

I started vehicles outside at -40 lots of times, and as stated above, they start. Agree, they really don't like it very much, and anything is off (oil viscosity, battery state, etc) they may not start.

I like the stick-on heaters on the oil pans. Anything like that helps. We used them on industrial engines, usually gensets in places where we had to go through black starts occasionally. Portable gensets to get the main engines heated, and then working up from the smaller engines to the larger ones.

The idling problem has to do with the crankcase ventilation valve freezing, but it doesn't happen after one or two occurences. It is statistically more likely, that is all. I don't think there is anything unique about a BMW in the cold vs another vehicle. It is just that the parts (and repairs) are more expensive, and BMW really doesn't have much experience in very cold weather. They are naturally cautious.
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