VW Diesels - Page 8

Ricky Bobby · #71 09-29-2015, 01:50 PM

^^^I'm with you there Josh.

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JCL · #72 09-29-2015, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshdub

40x sounds like a big number, but what is the extent of that number? How does it factor into real world situations? Also, what is the trade off? Don't diesels emit less Co2 than gas cars, but higher NOx? Does the significantly better fuel efficiency (and everything that entails, from processing, to transport, to consumption) offset the higher NOx? Is 40x higher still cleaner than 10, 15, 20 years ago?

What is the BIG picture here? Everyone is just saying "omg NOx".

Real world testing showed 10-35 times the standard. That testing was extensive. Some tests showed up to 40 times, and that is what the EPA announced. I went with 20 times in my example above, for lack of a better estimate.

The product development trade off is NOx vs (hp/fuel efficiency/torque/drivability - pick one or all)

A significant trade off for the manufacturer is cost. The cheat was most likely implemented to avoid the cost of things like SCR, while offering a product that consumers would adopt in greater numbers

No, higher NOx is not offset by greater fuel efficiency. If we wanted to do that calculation, you would have to do a human population health impact analysis. We know the impact of smog on annual deaths by country. There have already been calculations published of how many deaths in North America the VW emissions resulted in indirectly. For the fuel consumption/CO2 "upside" you would have to estimate the lives saved by the delay in global warming effects.

Diesels emit less CO2, which is why Euro vehicles tended to diesel engines (Euro rules have focused on CO2, at least up until now, but that is changing). Also, CO2 is related to fuel consumption, so CO2 is used as a proxy in Euro emissions regulations.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas, so the primary impact is on global warming and resultant climate change. NOx is a primary contributor to smog, which has more immediate health impacts in cities.

Europe is getting more worried about smog, and is coming up with NOx regulations. That will put a dent in the popularity of diesels in Europe, particularly if governments there decide to start taxing diesel fuel more like they tax gasoline, which is a real possibility. It all comes down to cost of ownership. A diesel vehicle with more expensive emissions controls, without government vehicle subsidies at point of sale to promote diesel industries, and without reduced fuel taxes relative to gasoline, has a hard time competing with a gasoline engine or alternate fuel. That is why this all matters, diesel was a gamble that Euro manufacturers bet on, and which they now have to reconsider. Some may already have done so; look at how BMW is promoting the i3 and i8, relative to their diesels (at least in some markets).

Consider that most diesel vehicles have been sold with tax breaks (subsidies) that were passed on to purchasers. Governments have started claims against VW to get those tax breaks back for the past years of fraudulent sales.

I keep hearing about the EPA, but US vehicles represent only 4.5% of the problem for VW. A drop in the bucket. The future will be played out on a larger stage IMO.

JCL · #73 09-29-2015, 03:08 PM

Interesting read from a slightly different perspective, about Euro carmakers and the differences between published emissions results and those achieved in practice.

The study linked below shows what the spread is for various popular vehicles, including some BMWs, and includes a discussion on some of the optimization methods used. Things like pushing the brake pads back into the calipers and taping over the door seams before a test. Changing tires for low rolling resistance tires, and overinflating. The background is that in Europe that is no central EPA group that does the test, rather manufacturers hire their own testing agencies and report the numbers. Those numbers aren't just for consumers who want to know what their fuel cost will be, they are the basis of tax rates and green vehicle incentives, and so on. That means that governments are pursuing automakers regarding potentially inflated claims, as tax fraud.

Bosch, who supplied the cheat software to VW, were referenced by a source who claimed the same software was supplied to BMW. BMW denied using it on vehicles for sale, and there is no evidence of a similar cheat. But there is a wide gap between reported and real world numbers, 48% in the case of the 5 series.

More of the iceberg.

Quote:

The system of testing cars to measure fuel economy and CO2 emissions is utterly discredited. This report analyses the gap between test results and real-world performance and finds that it has become a chasm, increasing from 8% in 2001 to 31% in 2012 and 40% in 2014. Without action this gap will grow to nearly 50% by 2020.

Mercedes cars have the biggest average gap between test and real-world performance, with real-world fuel consumption exceeding test results by nearly half. None of the improvement in emissions measured in tests of Opel/Vauxhall cars since 2008 has delivered improvement on the road, and their real-world fuel economy is actually getting worse. Just a fifth of the apparent improvement in emissions from the launch of the Mark 7 VW Golf (Europe’s best-selling car) have been achieved on the road.

Full report:

http://www.transportenvironment.org/...2015_FINAL.pdf

xbimma · #74 09-29-2015, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL

A significant trade off for the manufacturer is cost. The cheat was most likely implemented to avoid the cost of things like SCR, while offering a product that consumers would adopt in greater numbers

This swiss paper (French) says just that. It would have cost 300 euros a pop to use SCR as proposed by then boss Wolfgang Bernhard and enginner Rudolf Krebs. Apparently the plan was shredded when Martin Winterkorn took control around 2007. Just look like a bad strategy Le scandale Volkswagen a Ã©clatÃ© pour une Ã©conomie de 329Â*francs - LeTemps.ch

TiAgX5 · #75 11-03-2015, 09:02 AM

It looks like Audi and Porsche have "EPA mode" software too!

In the news this AM.

Ricky Bobby · #76 11-03-2015, 10:19 AM

^^Yep, the 3.0L diesel, WITH Urea injection also has a "dyno mode" built into the ECU so it cuts emissions back when being tested. All the Touaregs, Q7's, anything else with a 3.0 TDI is also going to be recalled.

Good news is the word on the street is a "rebate" of some sorts may in the works for affected owners in order to stave off the class action suits from people. I've said it once and I'll say it again, if they want to make it right just give a refund back on the price difference between the comparable gas engine model as you paid a premium for the clean diesel engine - Would put some money back in owner's pockets, and hold them over until "the fix" is realized.

TiAgX5 · #77 11-03-2015, 10:50 AM

I doubt most owners would accept the gas vs diesel refund and a significant reduction in HP/TQ from the fix.

When Ford owned Mazda, they printed the HP figures of Japanese Miatas in the US market dealer lit, the US cars had around 10 fewer HP due to restrictive exhaust.

The owners drove the cars, found the US spec cars had acceptable HP and purchased.

When the BS HP figures were found out, Ford/Mazda offered around $2500 to each owner or return for full refund. Most chose the latter.

I don't see VW getting out of this without providing owners a return/full refund option.

Ricky Bobby · #78 11-03-2015, 11:04 AM

I think the rebate would be to stave off class action lawsuits. Unless in perhaps the People's Republic of California, they can't force a recall.

Yes I understand you might be able to hold off re-registering a car, but in Jersey for example new cars are sold with a 5 year registration so it would be years before many get it done or were "forced to".

Thank god for aftermarket chip tuning companies

Joshdub · #79 11-03-2015, 01:21 PM

Thats a big blow adding the 3.0tdi. My friend has a 13 3.0tdi Q7 and absolutely hates it. Given the chance she'd sell it back in a heart beat and get back into a X5.

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