Looking for straight answers for transmission issues

[Critical Drew]

Thanks James, I'm still interested in finding a cause for the issue. I have been running Sport mode and have been trouble free. A few times I have operated the Trans in normal mode and if the shudder began I switch over to sport mode immediately and the isue disappears.

[diyanich]

Originally Posted by Critical Drew

Thanks James, I'm still interested in finding a cause for the issue. I have been running Sport mode and have been trouble free. A few times I have operated the Trans in normal mode and if the shudder began I switch over to sport mode immediately and the isue disappears.

Hi there,I am getting fed up with this problem and the shop that rebuilt the tranny.I get no shudder in Sports,but I am not a huge fan of that mode for my daily commute.
Firstly I found out that the fluid was poured into it after rebuilt was a Dexron IV ,not good for the ZF tranny,so I bought Mobile Super Multivehicle ATF LT 71141 which ZF and BMW recommending.The shop did two flushes which are about 75% of fresh fluid and about 25% old Dexron IV in it,I don't really know if it's good to mix those together,but I honestly don't have another choice right now.
It shudders the same as before the flushes,it's always right before the shift from 3rd to 4th,and once in the while at 20km/h from 2nd to 3rd.
Doesn't matter if I go uphill or just a plain street....
Sooo frustrated.
Should I bring it to the dealership especially for tranny diagnostic?

[m5james]

Using Sport for your daily commute on city streets is where it will decrease gas mileage, but once on the highway (where the car can justify needing 5th gear) it's not going to change anything. For example, while I was driving down the road doing 45mph, around 2000rpms, if I bumped it back to Drive, the rpm's went down to around 1600 and if shifted into 5th. At freeway speeds it will always shift into 5th, so Sport mode means nothing then other than when it downshifts for passing.

As for the fluid, the thing about LT71141 is that it's designed to have a longer service life...not "lifetime" persay, but longer than a standard oil at say 30-50k intervals. I've read of other experiences on other boards about people even using good ol Dexron and changing the fluid and filter every 30k, all without any issues. The problem is that most of the people on these forums who are even reading about transmission fluid, types, filters, problems, etc are already into the 100k range. As some have suggested here, it may cause more problems than good SINCE they've already got such high mileage and aren't addressing the problem as preventative maintenance, but more as a bandaid for issues that are starting to happen at the present. I have a machine that holds about 18 quarts of fluid, hooks to the transmission lines at the radiator, using a plunger that pulls out fluid and then replaces it at the same time.

It shudders at the same speed/rpm as before the rebuild? I would imagine it's a clutch pack issue...but I'm by no means a tranny expert, I just read a lot. Heck, it could still be the fluid though as I know people have expressed issues on my motorcycle forums about using car synthetic oil vs motorcycle synthetic oil due to the different wet clutch additives. As long as you're using something that says it's LT71141 compatible, and I'm assuming you have a warranty, then I'd just drive it harder and see if something either breaks, or breaks-in...seriously.

[diyanich]

Hi m5james,you know what happens,that I can't really drive it stronger/abuse it more since it's a snowy winter here now,so I have a lot of situations where I have to follow somebody at speeds when shudder is starting,so frustrating,if I go harder,it shifts at different speed past 50 km/h and no shudder present,but I am not always able to do so.
I am thinking to bring it to the dealership for tranny diagnostic.
It's still under Mr.Transmission warranty until Sept '11,so I am taking an action on this one now.
Still gonna get the rest of fluid flushed to get as close to full capacity of LT 71141,now I am at 3/4 I would assume.
The OP of this thread said you suspected the Valve body to be the problem,it could be I guess,but why if there's a slippage or malfunction it isn't storing any codes? Unless those ones are readable only by DIS,could it be?

Originally Posted by m5james

Using Sport for your daily commute on city streets is where it will decrease gas mileage, but once on the highway (where the car can justify needing 5th gear) it's not going to change anything. For example, while I was driving down the road doing 45mph, around 2000rpms, if I bumped it back to Drive, the rpm
's went down to around 1600 and if shifted into 5th.

As for the fluid, the thing about LT71141 is that it's designed to have a longer service life...not "lifetime" persay, but longer than a standard oil at say 30-50k intervals. I've read of other experiences on other boards about people even using good ol Dexron and changing the fluid and filter every 30k, all without any issues. The problem is that most of the people on these forums who are even reading about transmission fluid, types, filters, problems, etc are already into the 100k range. As some have suggested here, it may cause more problems than good SINCE they've already got such high mileage and aren't addressing the problem as preventative maintenance, but more as a bandaid for issues that are starting to happen at the present. I have a machine that holds about 18 quarts of fluid, hooks to the transmission lines at the radiator, using a plunger that pulls out fluid and then replaces it at the same time.

It shudders at the same speed/rpm as before the rebuild? I would imagine it's a clutch pack issue...but I'm by no means a tranny expert, I just read a lot. Heck, it could still be the fluid though as I know people have expressed issues on my motorcycle forums about using car synthetic oil vs motorcycle synthetic oil due to the different wet clutch additives. As long as you're using something that says it's LT71141 compatible, and I'm assuming you have a warranty, then I'd just drive it harder and see if something either breaks, or breaks-in...seriously.

[Jordo]

My X5 had absolutely no questions about it 100% identical issue as the OP. To a "T". As some others have said there is no way we all have the same issue EVEN THO WE ALL HAVE IDENTICAL SYMPTOMS.

I disagree. I think that the odds that we have a "shutter", "shimmy" or "jerking" at 25 to 30 mph is more then chance. I 100% believe there is a common link here.

I was a motorcycle mechanic for 12 years. Granted we don't have auto tranys in bikes, I do have enough diag experience to know that these symptoms are too exact to be just chance. AND it is VERY realistic to count on that if most of our symptoms are the same...... I would bet a pay check that the same parts are failing in the same manor.

Now, I tried the oil and filter change. And like some have said it may speed up the failure. In my case it did. The shutter increased in intensity. It also developed some new issues. It started to temporarily hit a false neutral and slam back I to gear.

So after.... Basically interviewing 4 trans shops in my area for there knowledge in ZF transmissions I selected one that had the most experience, and what my gut was telling me.

The deal was, if I didn't get back every clutch plate, every check valve, and every gear, they would not be paid. Simple as that. Well two weeks later after all was done they did give me every single part that was replace AND they even saved the oil for me to inspect.

WHAT I FOUND.

With my experience as a mechanic, I know that the clutch basically works with the same principles. The clutch plates looked... Ok. The planetary gears, decent. The valve body.... Not so good. There was clear evidence of scaring where the valves operate. I feel that this is the cause of most of our "shuttering" complaints.

I did not get to see the torque converter because they said they had to exchange it as a core charge for the new one that I got. (kind of pissed me off, they didn't say that when I said I needed all of my parts back)

So after all that, I spent $3400 to have all clutches, gears, valve body, torque converter, and control module replaced and my X5 has 1800 miles on it since with 100% perfect operation since.

WHAT I'M BABBLING ABOUT.

If I could go back in time and do it over... I would start by replacing the valve body. It can be swapped out, with out removing the transmission. (it's located just under the oil pan and needs no special tools)

And if that doesn't solve the issue, it would have been replace anyway if you got a complete rebuild.

Do you think you will attempt this or any other diag issues?

[diyanich]

Originally Posted by Jordo

My X5 had absolutely no questions about it 100% identical issue as the OP. To a "T". As some others have said there is no way we all have the same issue EVEN THO WE ALL HAVE IDENTICAL SYMPTOMS.

I disagree. I think that the odds that we have a "shutter", "shimmy" or "jerking" at 25 to 30 mph is more then chance. I 100% believe there is a common link here.

I was a motorcycle mechanic for 12 years. Granted we don't have auto tranys in bikes, I do have enough diag experience to know that these symptoms are too exact to be just chance. AND it is VERY realistic to count on that if most of our symptoms are the same...... I would bet a pay check that the same parts are failing in the same manor.

Now, I tried the oil and filter change. And like some have said it may speed up the failure. In my case it did. The shutter increased in intensity. It also developed some new issues. It started to temporarily hit a false neutral and slam back I to gear.

So after.... Basically interviewing 4 trans shops in my area for there knowledge in ZF transmissions I selected one that had the most experience, and what my gut was telling me.

The deal was, if I didn't get back every clutch plate, every check valve, and every gear, they would not be paid. Simple as that. Well two weeks later after all was done they did give me every single part that was replace AND they even saved the oil for me to inspect.

WHAT I FOUND.

With my experience as a mechanic, I know that the clutch basically works with the same principles. The clutch plates looked... Ok. The planetary gears, decent. The valve body.... Not so good. There was clear evidence of scaring where the valves operate. I feel that this is the cause of most of our "shuttering" complaints.

I did not get to see the torque converter because they said they had to exchange it as a core charge for the new one that I got. (kind of pissed me off, they didn't say that when I said I needed all of my parts back)

So after all that, I spent $3400 to have all clutches, gears, valve body, torque converter, and control module replaced and my X5 has 1800 miles on it since with 100% perfect operation since.

WHAT I'M BABBLING ABOUT.

If I could go back in time and do it over... I would start by replacing the valve body. It can be swapped out, with out removing the transmission. (it's located just under the oil pan and needs no special tools)

And if that doesn't solve the issue, it would have been replace anyway if you got a complete rebuild.

Do you think you will attempt this or any other diag issues?

I think I am gonna request the Valve body replaced along the harness.

[diyanich]

After first fluid flush (about 75% of Dexron IV was gone) I felt nicer shifts and shudder was just a vibration alike @ a t higher rate,but once cold it would shudder even stronger than before the flush--> low fluid level 'cause as soon as the temp was up it would shudder as I described above.
Then I brought it for the next flush and I gave a good description of all the symptoms and gave an example from Bimmerfest board,where guy topped up the fluid by himself after tranny flush done by the shop and was able to fill one more quart of fluid,so.....Yesterday I picked up my X and drove home,no shudder at operating temps and this morning,no shudder while cold.
Mobil Super MultiVehicle ATF LT 71141 made a difference and the tranny master mechanic was refusing the idea that the fluid would change anything,he admitted that the fluid made a difference.
I may be rush to be happy about the shudder absence,but for now I am happy not to feel that frustrating thing.
Will keep you posted.

[Wayne's World]

Originally Posted by diyanich

After first fluid flush (about 75% of Dexron IV was gone) I felt nicer shifts and shudder was just a vibration alike @ a t higher rate,but once cold it would shudder even stronger than before the flush--> low fluid level 'cause as soon as the temp was up it would shudder as I described above.
Then I brought it for the next flush and I gave a good description of all the symptoms and gave an example from Bimmerfest board,where guy topped up the fluid by himself after tranny flush done by the shop and was able to fill one more quart of fluid,so.....Yesterday I picked up my X and drove home,no shudder at operating temps and this morning,no shudder while cold.
Mobil Super MultiVehicle ATF LT 71141 made a difference and the tranny master mechanic was refusing the idea that the fluid would change anything,he admitted that the fluid made a difference.
I may be rush to be happy about the shudder absence,but for now I am happy not to feel that frustrating thing.
Will keep you posted.

I think the key here for the OP and alluding to what JCL mentioned and what others have mentioned about fluid changes facilitating failure is the 2nd drain & fill. When I purchased my '06 3.0 (non-sport), I didn't have any transmissions issues. I'm just OCD and needed to do it to ensure (in my mind) that i'd covered all my bases and wouldn't hate myself if I didn't do it and it failed on me down the line.

When I did do the drain and fill, I replaced the filter, cleaned off the underside of the tranny that was exposed and the pan and magnet. Fitted the new filter, replaced the gasket and bolted it up. Filled it up with fresh Dex VI (Valvoline), ran it through the gears while stationary, took it out for a 15 minute spin on the highway and returned back to my garage. Filled it up a tad bit more. I then drove around like that for 2 weeks at which point I then drained all of the fluid out again and re-filled with fresh Dex VI. It's been almost 30K miles and I've had no issues whatsoever. Shifting continues to be smooth and as expected whether in normal or sport mode.

I think when doing the flush, as JCL mentioned, the new fluid with lots of new detergents clean the innards. If you just do it once and leave it in there, you're just circulating more dirt/debris, granted its pretty clean to begin with. The only thing I cleaned off was this thin layer black muck that builds up along the pan bottom and the magnet. I think that doing the second drain and fill accomplishes two things. One is it allows the cleaned out gunk to exit the tranny and two, it increases the concentration of fresh, clean fluid in the tranny. Any drain and fill will not get out 100% of the fluid as approx. 40% of it is still in the torque converter at any given time.

That's just my .02c adjusted for inflation.

[diyanich]

Just wanted to remind that original poster's tranny is ZF LifeGuardFluid5 fluid or LT 71141 by Esso/Exxon compatible.No Dexron stuff of any kind.As I already wrote above,it makes a lot of difference.

[diyanich]

Originally Posted by Critical Drew

I have an 03' 4.4i with about 110Kmi. I am having only one of the Transmission issues that I have read about here. I have the low-speed shudder under light throttle through the lower gears.
I can't say it always occurs, but it it frequent. There are no other noticeable problems with my transmission performance. All other shifts are very smooth and there is no noticeable slipping.
-- What are the causes of this symptom?
-- Can a fluid and filter make a difference?
-- Is this always a sign that the end is near for my Trans.?

Anyone with experience here please let me know.

Oil change kit 5HP24