Anyone removed clutch fan and replaced with electric?

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by trader4

For the record, I never said *some* hp isn't freed up. What I continue
to question are assumptions like made here a few posts back that
the stock fan is 1hp or more at 750 RPMs. Given that there are all
kinds of similar fans that are 1/10 to 1/3hp, experience with what
1 hp motors can do, etc, I don't see how you explain this small fan consuming 1hp at 750 RPMs.

You aren't reading the other responses then. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. Dedicated fan motors to a clutch style parasitic fan. As I said, if I were a mech. engineer I could show you the math... but I'm not.
But I don't have to be one to understand how the concept works either.

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by trader4

I am reading the responses. Why is a fan with a dedicated motor any
different than a "parasitic" fan that uses power from the engine?
The core issue is the amount of power it takes to move the air with
a fan and it's not apples to oranges. I think the comparison is
directly relevant. Did you see what a 10hp fan really looks like?

The core issue is not the amount of power it takes to move the air... you're right, that stays constant (mostly, I don't have the knowledge to calculate blade pitch, wind speed, etc).

The core issue is the method in which that power is achieved. A dedicated motor vs. an engine designed to do many other things, primary of which, is moving a 4200lb SUV.

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by trader4

I don't see how what else what the engine is doing matters. HP required
by the fan is HP required by the fan. Moving that vehicle down
the highway at 65MPH probably takes less than 50hp. And I never
said the power required by the fan stays constant because clearly
it doesn't.

If you don't understand how the examples you are trying to compare are not comparable by now... I don't think there is anything we are going to be able to tell you that will help you to do so. I suggest you find a mechanical engineer or automotive engineer to try and give you the explanation you desire and try to avoid this thread since we aren't able to explain it in a satisfactory manner. Just a suggestion though...

Honestly, at this point it almost feels like you are trolling the rest of us.

[crystalworks]

It's like talking to a wall.

And FWIW... I have never replaced an Aux fan on any of my BMW's (10+ of them). My longest in service has near 400,000 miles on it. Electric fans are quite reliable but like anything else... there are some that fail earlier than others. I've seen bad fan clutches too.

Also... having seen the effects of the mechanical fan's propensity to destroy the radiator (among other things) after a water pump bearing failure or a belt failure, trust me it's nice to not have to worry about that. And you're right about the water pump not pumping in either of those cases... but at least you are still forcing air over the head with the electric fans.

You are happy with your cooling solution, and it's perfectly fine... no one is saying it's not. Leave us to our own devices. I have dyno evidence of HP gains on one of my vehicles and that is more than sufficient for me. BTW there is air being forced into the radiator during a dyno... they use giant swamp coolers in front of the car to ensure proper cooling. I think you mentioned something about no air flow during dynos making the result invalid, or at least inconclusive.

[PropellerHead]

Originally Posted by trader4

Which shows once again that you're lost in the wilderness and why you should just stop.

Physician, heal thyself.

[crystalworks]

To all the members of this thread... I would like to formally apologize for feeding the troll. I was sucked in and have been going around and around in a futile attempt to reason with someone who has made up their mind about something and closed it.

To paraphrase the omniscient Ace Ventura: I prostrate myself before you fellow members and beg thy forgiveness.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

To all the members of this thread... I would like to formally apologize for feeding the troll. I was sucked in and have been going around and around in a futile attempt to reason with someone who has made up their mind about something and closed it.

To paraphrase the omniscient Ace Ventura: I prostrate myself before you fellow members and beg thy forgiveness.

I appreciate your effort. It's good to challenge ignorance when someone is trying to spread it around.

[bcredliner]

Trader4--I agree with you---You don't see what the problem is because you are the problem. It is a choice you make each time you make a post. In this case you choose to be destructive rather than constructive. When you make a statement with as I see it, or in my world, I don't see how-- it clearly is an opinion rather than a statement of fact. When that is the case there is no reason to be defensive when someone disagrees and to relentlessly defend your opinion. You see constructive difference of opinions that are handled peaceably all the time--Threads such as the best oil to use or should I change my transmission fluid.

In this case you are challenging 50 years of racers removing stock fans in favor of aftermarket fans. You are challenging decades of eliminating clutch fans in favor of electric fans. All for the sole purpose to have the use of the horsepower that was taken to run the fan they removed. The recovered HP has always been from 4 to near 20HP depending on the application. For my particular application the Flex-A-Lite techs estimated the recovered HP would be 7-10HP saying they try to be conservative and cautioned that dyno results vary by dyno as do back to back pulls and pulls at a later date.

I think that for mild mannered Kent daily driving the change is a subjective value equation. IMO, if Kent's clutch fan died and the he intended to keep the vehicle for a year or more and is a DIYer it is worth consideration, especially if Kent is Located in a long winter or hot summer climate.

You now have another choice which is how you respond to this post. You can be constructive or destructive, you can peacefully contribute or you can be defensive. You have done both in other threads so I know it is a conscious choice you make. I make the same choice. I'm sure by now members know I challenge posts that I view as uncalled for especially those involving new members. And, would like me to drop continued responses long before I do. I am well aware of that.

You are not singled out by me or anyone else when you choose to be peaceably constructive. You will always be challenged or called out when you are not. The primary reason is the person wanting help expects posts to be helpful and on topic. The topic of my thread is-- has anyone removed the clutch fan and replaced it with an electric fan. I had no question in my mind that it will be worthwhile I was merely interested in what they did and why. I have made the switch many many times over the years and each time it was a great HP gain per dollar spent investment. The Dinan mods delivered 29HP. The cost was several thousand dollars. The electric fan and controller cost was about $400.

The reason is that 10HP in round numbers equates to a .1 improvement in elapsed quarter mile time or one car length.

[bcredliner]

I can find an endorsement to either side of almost any question. You are grasping at straws rather than accepting overwhelming evidence that you are incorrect. You are making a fool of yourself by continuing to ignore overwhelming input contrary to your position. You are ignoring 50 years of racers making this change as a great value to have more horsepower available to them. The range based on the application has been a conservative 4-20HP benefit. Per your article, CarCraft was saying it is as much as 30HP. I didn't notice the date of this article but I would like to read the CarCraft article I may be leaving HP on the table.

It is not about having no fan all of the time. It is having no fan when you need all the horsepower available. Keep in mind this is only about racing, has nothing to do with daily driving. In racing the engine is almost always in the upper RPM ranges, significantly more than 3500 RPMs and the electric fan will not be running. In addition, I shift at 6,500 RPMs. That means if we accept the article as gospel than we have to accept the horsepower used will increase significantly more that 5HP. My purpose for installing an electric fan has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH DAILY DRIVING. That has been crystal clear from the first post. Daily driving conclusions associated with the performance of an electric fan are clutter, useless, not applicable.

Non technical people debate the worth of electric fans, have for many years. You article appears to be a non-tech person as no credentials are included. While he mentions engine oil and water temp was the same. What about air temp and humidity and the test were without forced air equal to the speed associated with the engine RPM. If I presented this 'test' to you as fact I would expect these same responses. Doesn't take much common sense to see your article is full of holes and not scientific.

If you can't objectively consider input contrary to as you see it and adjust your as you see it, I suggest you stop posting. You are being self destructive, losing all credibility here. If you see this as winning or losing then I suggest you evaluate if you can win and how much support you have here for ---how you see it. Cut your losses--at this point I don't think there is anything you can do or say that will garner you a win.

There are no credentials for the person conducting the tests and the fans were rescued from parts laying around, no verification of the condition. Further, if you read past the test information he says the clutch fan test was invalid because the engine was not up to operating temperature. And, you are asking me to accept these findings over what Carcraft printed and sold copies to hundreds of thousand of readers. We have no idea if the clutch fan is anything like a BMW clutch fan. Are you saying this individual is more credible than CarCraft Magazine and 50 years of serious racers? Do you really think you know more then all that evidence to the contrary.

[crystalworks]

Don't do it redliner... lol... don't get sucked back down the rabbit hole.

As you say, he's lost all credibility here... so it really matters not what he posts. But what we respond with. Just ignore the troll. Like you, I've seen some helpful posts from Trader but in this particular case... he has made up his mind about this subject and will not falter from it. He will ignore 100 pieces of evidence contradicting his position if he can find 1 piece that supports it. And even in that case he is cherry picking parts of it. Just let it go... you can't talk to a deaf man (or woman, I'm not sexist.) Although the stubborn nature of the poster might be more easily explained if it were a woman... holy crap maybe I AM sexist. JK Ahhhh Sailor Jerry you are wonderful.