Anyone removed clutch fan and replaced with electric?

[bcredliner]

I'm on vacation, not much to do. Thought I would count up the number of posts by the crazy professor. 25 posts of the same bulls$%t, rhetoric, jibber jabber, applesauce, yadda yadda yadda.

Several members have tried to explain the flaws and lack of logic with no result other than another post about an attic fan.

I started this thread asking if anyone had made the change to an electric fan for input on what they chose and how they made the change. There never has been any question of benefits and performance gain. I've been doing mods like this for over 50 years as have countless other racers.

What I would like to know---is anyone buying what trader4 is selling?

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by bcredliner

What I would like to know---is anyone buying what trader4 is selling?

Doesn't look like it...

Fact is... HP is freed up. No question about it. Others have made fine points about why and have given personal experience regarding HP and MPG improvements.

Oh, and sorry... I couldn't find any info on M54 electric water pumps that I remember. Only references to remote mount solutions and such.

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by trader4

For the record, I never said *some* hp isn't freed up. What I continue
to question are assumptions like made here a few posts back that
the stock fan is 1hp or more at 750 RPMs. Given that there are all
kinds of similar fans that are 1/10 to 1/3hp, experience with what
1 hp motors can do, etc, I don't see how you explain this small fan consuming 1hp at 750 RPMs.

You aren't reading the other responses then. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. Dedicated fan motors to a clutch style parasitic fan. As I said, if I were a mech. engineer I could show you the math... but I'm not.
But I don't have to be one to understand how the concept works either.

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by trader4

I am reading the responses. Why is a fan with a dedicated motor any
different than a "parasitic" fan that uses power from the engine?
The core issue is the amount of power it takes to move the air with
a fan and it's not apples to oranges. I think the comparison is
directly relevant. Did you see what a 10hp fan really looks like?

The core issue is not the amount of power it takes to move the air... you're right, that stays constant (mostly, I don't have the knowledge to calculate blade pitch, wind speed, etc).

The core issue is the method in which that power is achieved. A dedicated motor vs. an engine designed to do many other things, primary of which, is moving a 4200lb SUV.

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by trader4

I don't see how what else what the engine is doing matters. HP required
by the fan is HP required by the fan. Moving that vehicle down
the highway at 65MPH probably takes less than 50hp. And I never
said the power required by the fan stays constant because clearly
it doesn't.

If you don't understand how the examples you are trying to compare are not comparable by now... I don't think there is anything we are going to be able to tell you that will help you to do so. I suggest you find a mechanical engineer or automotive engineer to try and give you the explanation you desire and try to avoid this thread since we aren't able to explain it in a satisfactory manner. Just a suggestion though...

Honestly, at this point it almost feels like you are trolling the rest of us.

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by trader4

The problem is the explanations turn out to be "it's different",
"the engine is powering the car too", "it's parasitic." None of those
explain anything as to why that small fan would need an
extraordinary amount of power compared to similar fans.
And note you don't want to address the fact
that with a car moving, air is being rammed into that fan,
greatly reducing the power required to move it. Think about
a windmill.

I've looked for good test data and there is almost nothing. Which in
itself is a curious thing. Because if I were selling electric fans and
trying to convince people to buy them to save 10hp, I'd have some
actual lab verified test data to prove that it does that.

Okay, I'll try one more time. The "10hp" (is that hypothetical?) you are gaining is with the electric fan off vs. the mechanical fan being driven all the time to some degree. With the electric fan on the hp gain will be less than 10hp. Probably around half. I'll address your point about the car moving now... your engine fan is not ever being "rammed" with air. Your aux fan is since it's is in front of the condenser and the radiator... but your engine fan is most definitely not. Your engine fan doesn't care whether you are on the highway or sitting in idle... your belt will keep driving it at whatever speed the condition of the fan clutch dictates.

The main benefits of switching to electric are the increased durability of all components involved. IE: removal of fan clutch, less stress on water pump bearing/snout, and better control of temps depending on how/when you trigger your fan. A small increase in HP and MPG are a nice side benefit of the swap.

I hope that helps. If not... well... as I suggested, find someone who can explain in a satisfactory manner.

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by trader4

10 hp hypothetical?...

I was just going off your 10hp example. And like I said... "probably around half." Not HALF exactly. I can't give you EXACT figures.

As for durability... you may be on your original fan and clutch, but are you on your original water pump? My Volvo E-fan retrofit on my m42 has lasted 6 years... and I am still on the same water pump so far (knock on wood). Another benefit is that in the event of a failed belt you definitely slow the speed with which your engine temp rises.

You know what... it's not worth it. I'm out. If you don't think that electric parts are beneficial in this particular use case... there is nothing we can say. I mean BMW (and most other manufacturers) should fire ALL their engineers since they keep designing electric fans (and electric water pumps and electric power steering pumps) for almost all current models. They free up HP and MPG... by not being on all the time. A completely off E-fan is always going to be more efficient than even the most amount of slip on a fan clutch.

If you want to stay with a mechanical fan... that's fine. It is a perfectly good cooling solution obviously and as you stated. But why you are in here debating against the benefits of switching to electric I just don't understand.

Originally Posted by PropellerHead

I was giving Trader a hard time. Joking.

Hah... just realized that went right over my head when I responded to your comment a few pages back. That's what I get for posting in the morning when the little one first wakes up... my focus is not entirely "focused."

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

I was just going off your 10hp example. And like I said... "probably around half." Not HALF exactly. I can't give you EXACT figures.

As for durability... you may be on your original fan and clutch, but are you on your original water pump? My Volvo E-fan retrofit on my m42 has lasted 6 years... and I am still on the same water pump so far (knock on wood). Another benefit is that in the event of a failed belt you definitely slow the speed with which your engine temp rises.

You know what... it's not worth it. I'm out. If you don't think that electric parts are beneficial in this particular use case... there is nothing we can say. I mean BMW (and most other manufacturers) should fire ALL their engineers since they keep designing electric fans (and electric water pumps and electric power steering pumps) for almost all current models. They free up HP and MPG... by not being on all the time. A completely off E-fan is always going to be more efficient than even the most amount of slip on a fan clutch.

If you want to stay with a mechanical fan... that's fine. It is a perfectly good cooling solution obviously and as you stated. But why you are in here debating against the benefits of switching to electric I just don't understand.

"in my view" "as I see it"----Give it up. Concede. Hopefully we never understand.

For PERTINENT information about the performance benefits of an electric fan see post 163.

[crystalworks]

It's like talking to a wall.

And FWIW... I have never replaced an Aux fan on any of my BMW's (10+ of them). My longest in service has near 400,000 miles on it. Electric fans are quite reliable but like anything else... there are some that fail earlier than others. I've seen bad fan clutches too.

Also... having seen the effects of the mechanical fan's propensity to destroy the radiator (among other things) after a water pump bearing failure or a belt failure, trust me it's nice to not have to worry about that. And you're right about the water pump not pumping in either of those cases... but at least you are still forcing air over the head with the electric fans.

You are happy with your cooling solution, and it's perfectly fine... no one is saying it's not. Leave us to our own devices. I have dyno evidence of HP gains on one of my vehicles and that is more than sufficient for me. BTW there is air being forced into the radiator during a dyno... they use giant swamp coolers in front of the car to ensure proper cooling. I think you mentioned something about no air flow during dynos making the result invalid, or at least inconclusive.

[PropellerHead]

Originally Posted by trader4

Which shows once again that you're lost in the wilderness and why you should just stop.

Physician, heal thyself.