Are You Kidding Me? - Page 5

BMW X5 · #41 09-18-2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

But look where diplomacy got Israel with Egypt and Jordan.

Last time I heard, those treaties are holding up just fine since they were signed. The treaty with Egypt has lasted 27 years, and the treaty with Jordan has lasted 13 years.

because those are "civilized" or at least they are trying to be plus they are holding the treaties because they got crushed before and well dont want to get crushed again.

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BMW X5 · #42 09-18-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

To quote Ronald Reagan, "there you go again"

They are not "terrorists". They are accused terrorists. There is a difference. And most of them have turned out to be innocent as is evidenced by their being released.

The question is not whether terrorists should have rights, but whether those being accused of being terrorists should have the right to clear their name and prove they are not a terrorist.

You might as well say that murderers do not deserve to have rights, so from now on anyone arrested for murder should just be executed with no trial or nothing.

We are currently holding over 14,000 "detainees" (for lack of a better term) and none of them have been charged with a crime, told why they are being held, and their families have not even been notified that they are in custody. They have simply been kidnapped and in most cases, I'm sure their families assume they are dead. Some of them have been held for over 4 years.

Over 18,000 have been held for periods of more than a year, and then released without ever being told why they were arrested in the first place, and without any compensation or apology.

If they are terrorists, then charge them with a crime and have a trial. I'm pretty sure that the right to prove one's innocence is not something that is an "American" right but a human right.

if they WERE arrested there was a reason for it whether speculation or other, the fact they were released is either they really are innocent or there was just not evidence which is as good as innocent. unfortunately now adays it should be reversed to guilty until proven innocent in these cases where they are supposedly "terrorists" if they are innocent then they will be released and no an apology wont fix what was done but if we dont do it then the ones who are not so innocent will harm us again. learn from the past and stop making the same mistakes in the future.

rebound · #43 09-18-2006, 01:47 PM

I see Eric is again equating terrorism with criminal behavior. That's what's led us down this primrose path.

Terrorism/terrorist acts are acts of war, not violations of law. There's no such thing as an "accused terrorist." They are enemy combatants, and subject to being killed without due process. You know - in a war.

I don't recall anyone on 9/11 being accorded their due process. Did I miss something?

SANguru · #44 09-18-2006, 02:00 PM

there's a big difference between diplomacy with a hostile entity in war vs regular diplomacy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

But look where diplomacy got Israel with Egypt and Jordan.

Last time I heard, those treaties are holding up just fine since they were signed. The treaty with Egypt has lasted 27 years, and the treaty with Jordan has lasted 13 years.

Eric5273 · #45 09-18-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMW X5

because those are "civilized" or at least they are trying to be plus they are holding the treaties because they got crushed before and well dont want to get crushed again.

The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was no different than Hezbollah in Lebenon or Hamas in Palestine. The Israelis considered them terrorists. If you remember, Egypt was Enemy #1 back in the 1970s, just the same as Syria and Iran are today. Diplomacy did work.

Eric5273 · #46 09-18-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebound

Terrorism/terrorist acts are acts of war, not violations of law. There's no such thing as an "accused terrorist." They are enemy combatants, and subject to being killed without due process. You know - in a war.

Most of them are civilians who had the disfortune of living in the wrong country. Very few are actually combatants. According to the US Military, 70-90% of those detained in Iraq and Afghanistan were "mistakes".

BMW X5 · #47 09-18-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

Most of them are civilians who had the disfortune of living in the wrong country. Very few are actually combatants. According to the US Military, 70-90% of those detained in Iraq and Afghanistan were "mistakes".

them being born was a mistake. and misfortune can be applied to anyone like we can say we had the misfortune of being born here or someone can have the misfortune of being black/white/etc... not quite sure how thats a fortune or not

BMW X5 · #48 09-18-2006, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was no different than Hezbollah in Lebenon or Hamas in Palestine. The Israelis considered them terrorists. If you remember, Egypt was Enemy #1 back in the 1970s, just the same as Syria and Iran are today. Diplomacy did work.

well that was a good case scenario, and as you recall we tried piece treaties with hamas and hezbollah did that work ? plain and simple no.

Eric5273 · #49 09-18-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMW X5

well that was a good case scenario, and as you recall we tried piece treaties with hamas and hezbollah did that work ? plain and simple no.

As far as I know, there has never been a peace treaty with Hezbollah.

Israel had a peace treaty with Hamas which resulted in peace for 16 months until Israel violated the treaty on June 9th with an attack that killed 10 Palistineans:

Hamas ends truce after Israeli attack

Saturday 10 June 2006

Palestinian Islamist group Hamas has shelved a 16-month-old truce after Israeli attacks on Gaza killed 10 people, including women and children on a beach outing.

"The Israeli massacres represent a direct opening battle and that means the earthquake in the Zionist cities will resume and the herds of occupiers have no choice but to prepare the coffins or the departing luggage," Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas, said on Friday.

Sami Abu Zuhri, a Hamas spokesman, confirmed the group would renew its attacks.

I guess you didn't hear about this on Fox News or the Rush Limbaugh show?

The kidnapping of an Israeli soldier happened 2 weeks later. The Israeli attack was barely reported by the American media, and so most Americans think the kidnapping was what broke the treaty. I have heard both Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity repeat this lie on their programs -- both claimed that the Hamas kidnapping of an Israeli soldier on June 25th was what broke the peace treaty.

So yes, diplomacy does work, even with groups like Hamas. But obviously, if you violate the treaty, it will not work.

And from the same article:

While France, Egypt and Russia condemned the attack, Sean McCormack, spokesman for the US State Department, said: "Let me just state what we have said before: That Israel has a right to defend itself."

No surprise there.

BMW X5 · #50 09-18-2006, 03:07 PM

oh great so you are looking at what aljazeera is saying? and rush limbaugh? and sean hannity? Eric are you seriously making those statements because some of the stuff i can take seriously but this just seems like a joke

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