Yet another recall... - Page 2

JCL · #11 05-20-2010, 01:27 PM

Yes, the accelerator pedal made by CTS is a mechanical issue. The only problem is, it can't cause the accelerator pedal to be depressed. It can reportedly cause the pedal to be slow to come back to idle.

But it hasn't been implicated in the unintended acceleration recall, except in the consumer press. When CTS (the pedal manufacturer) went on the offensive, and put out a press release clarifying the issue, Toyota publicly agreed with the CTS statements. Toyota and CTS both confirmed that there has never been an accident caused by the pedal. The pedal wasn't even used on all of the cars implicated in the recall. It was being replaced as a cautionary measure (to show the public that they were doing something). But the news media didn't give that the same coverage, because they had their targets firmly fixed on what they believed was the cause.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTS press release

Elkhart, IN…CTS Corporation (NYSE: CTS) today provided comments on Toyota’s recent accelerator pedal recall. As previously announced by Toyota, the January 21 voluntary recall results from what Toyota described as “a rare set of conditions which may cause the accelerator pedal to become harder to depress, slower to return or, in the worst case, stuck in a partially depressed position.” Toyota said this condition “is rare and occurs gradually over a period of time.”
As has been publically stated by Toyota, we have no knowledge of any accidents or injuries that have resulted from this rare potential condition. Based on information that Toyota has provided us, we are aware of fewer than a dozen instances where this condition has occurred, and in no instance did the accelerator actually become stuck in a partially depressed condition.
As Toyota stated, this recall is different from and unrelated to the “sudden, unintended acceleration issue” which was the subject of the November 2009 Toyota recall. In the November recall, the pedals in Toyota models dated back to model year 2002. CTS became a pedal supplier in 2005. Accordingly, our products are not implicated by the November 2009 recall. The products we supply to Toyota, including the pedals covered by the recent recall, have been manufactured to Toyota’s design specifications.....

Full press release: CTS News Release

So, we have a case of trial by media. And the public thinks that the gas pedal component caused it. BS. I believe that we still don't know what the cause was, if there was in fact one to find.

The hype is just ridiculous. How many people are reported to have died due to this problem? Something like 40? How many die every day on the highways of the US? 40 people dying is very sad, and I feel for their families. But think back to the videos of the people phoning 911 to ask what to do while they were driving down the highway. If Darwin's theory worked correctly, those people would be out of the gene pool now. Again, 40 people dying is tragic. How many minutes does it take for 40 people to die in the US from preventable/treatable lung cancers, 24/7/365? How about we put smoke detectors in cars, like in airplanes? That would save more people than the whole gas pedal nonsense.

Anyway, Toyota will survive just fine. Ford is doing great now, building good cars again, with good consumer acceptance, and that is after having the most vehicles recalled of any manufacturer in history a few years back. Good for them, and I wish Toyota success as well.

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X5rolls · #12 05-21-2010, 10:51 AM

I still propose that an independent group of software engineers and a testing organization be hired after approval of Congress and certified third party that isn't associated with the study to conduct true root cause analysis. Anything less will be the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Until the root cause and fixes are identified, each Toyota is a potential 2 ton missile.

Read on -

"There is no evidence that Toyota has conducted extensive or rigorous testing of its vehicles for potential electronic defects that could cause sudden un-intended acceleration." - Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif.) chairman of a committee investigating Toyota.

washingtonpost.com

Lawmakers question motives behind Toyota's independent probe

By Peter Whoriskey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 21, 2010; A14

Toyota's investigation into the causes of unintended acceleration in its vehicles appears to have been aimed less at identifying the root problem than at public relations, congressional investigators said Thursday.

Earlier in the year, Toyota assured worried customers and Congress that it was conducting an independent investigation into reports of sudden acceleration, which has been linked to as many as 52 deaths. But on Thursday, the congressional investigators said the company that Toyota has hired to do the review, Exponent, had offered no written plan for the project or any written specifications for the experiments it intends to run.
Moreover, the company was hired for the investigation not by Toyota but by a law firm hired to represent the company in class-action lawsuits, lawmakers said.

"What we have learned is deeply troubling," Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif.), chairman of a committee investigating Toyota, said at a hearing Thursday morning. "There is no evidence that Toyota has conducted extensive or rigorous testing of its vehicles for potential electronic defects that could cause sudden unintended acceleration."

Waxman said that congressional investigators asked the Exponent engineer overseeing the work to explain the lack of documentation.
"He explained that writing down what Exponent does would 'limit the creativity' of the engineers working on the project," Waxman said. "That's preposterous."

In response, Toyota officials said the company last week presented the congressional committee with a 64-page document outlining the research it is doing on Toyota's electronics.

The company's U.S. chief, James E. Lentz, testified in addition that Exponent has completed 11,000 hours of research on the topic.
The company and its dealers have also tested 2,000 cars cited in unintended acceleration reports, he said.

"Significantly, none of these investigations have found that our electronic throttle control system with intelligence was the cause," Lentz said.
Lentz also said the company has completed the previously announced fixes on millions of recalled vehicles: More than 70 percent of the 2.3 million vehicles recalled for sticking pedals have been repaired, he said, and about 30 percent of the 5.4 million vehicles that were recalled for floor mat entrapment have been fixed.

Last week, documents emerged that Toyota officials sought to develop a public relations campaign to attack the credibility of key witnesses who have testified before Congress about acceleration problems with the company's cars.

"Unfortunately, Toyota appears to have been more interested in messaging than scientific inquiry," Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) said.

JCL · #13 05-21-2010, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X5rolls

I still propose that an independent group of software engineers and a testing organization be hired after approval of Congress and certified third party that isn't associated with the study to conduct true root cause analysis. Anything less will be the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Until the root cause and fixes are identified, each Toyota is a potential 2 ton missile.

You have an independent group of software engineers and a testing organization, called NHTSA. They do root cause analysis. Are you proposing to disband them, or add a second group?

Interesting that GM, Ford, and Chrysler together have more unintended acceleration deaths in the past three years than Toyota (59 vs 51). There certainly may be something there to find in the Toyota models under discussion. But to be sure we find all the possessed vehicles let's make sure we investigate all manufacturers.

X5rolls · #14 05-21-2010, 12:09 PM

NHTSA is either sleeping or isn't staffed with enough expertise. They could certainly be part of an approval process of who is chosen to do the tests.

Right now, I think Toyota is the focus, it would be much better to keep it with one vendor both politically (to keep the momentum going) and from a process perspective to ensure as rapid as possible an end to end set of steps with a guaranteed outcome findings, regardless of what they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL

You have an independent group of software engineers and a testing organization, called NHTSA. They do root cause analysis. Are you proposing to disband them, or add a second group?

Interesting that GM, Ford, and Chrysler together have more unintended acceleration deaths in the past three years than Toyota (59 vs 51). There certainly may be something there to find in the Toyota models under discussion. But to be sure we find all the possessed vehicles let's make sure we investigate all manufacturers.

JCL · #15 02-09-2011, 01:56 AM

This just in: NASA investigation reveals no electrical problems in Toyota accelerator pedals. Some chance that problems were mechanical in nature, ie floor mats. NHTSA has concluded that most accidents were probably because of drivers stepping on the accelerator when they meant to apply the brake. NHTSA received 3000 complaints about Toyota accelerators in the past 10 years. They have confirmed 5 of those incidents. Mass hysteria appears to have died down.

Toyota quarterly profits are down. Annual sales figures and profit forecasts have been raised. Stock price rose. Life goes on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/09/op...er=rss&emc=rss

CBC News - Money - Toyota acceleration woes not electronic: U.S.

X5rolls · #16 02-09-2011, 10:51 AM

So that is a big hurtle to cross for Toyota for sure. Sounds like NASA had real software and hardware engineers pour over the code and set up a more scientific set of tests. I think the sterling image Toyota once had will be difficult to reclaim. I think their stumbles have opened the doors for automobile manufacturers to make sales and those owners won't necessarily come back to Toyota.

JCL · #17 02-10-2011, 09:08 PM

Toyota said all along that there was nothing electronic that could cause this. NHTSA agreed at the time, but Congress ordered an independent investigation. They used NASA. NASA has now backed up Toyota's original position.

I think that Toyota has already crossed the biggest of the hurdles they had in front of them.

Pretty hard road ahead for all those law suits being worked on by class action teams if there isn't a cause or responsible party to point at.

X5rolls · #18 02-11-2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL

Toyota said all along that there was nothing electronic that could cause this. NHTSA agreed at the time, but Congress ordered an independent investigation. They used NASA. NASA has now backed up Toyota's original position.

I think that Toyota has already crossed the biggest of the hurdles they had in front of them.

Pretty hard road ahead for all those law suits being worked on by class action teams if there isn't a cause or responsible party to point at.

100% agree with you.

Boston X5 4.4 · #19 02-11-2011, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL

Pretty hard road ahead for all those law suits being worked on by class action teams if there isn't a cause or responsible party to point at.

....good to see it getting stuck to those bottom feeding tort attorneys

E61Silver · #20 02-16-2011, 10:03 AM

My E60 is subject to recall for problems with the fuel pump.
They reprogram and said the fuel pump did not need changing and a month latter it failed.

BMW has had issues with the fuel pump on the 335 & 535 for years now and has been forced to issue a recall. I have a relatively new car that has a known problem and BMW approach is to wait for failure.

My point is that BMW seems to be doing a bad job with this issue just like Toyota.

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