Why do Americans support this man?

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by Krimson X

What? I didn't go out scouring the internet looking to debunk your flag story. Instead I used your own link against you. No, you are correct on the number of flags removed from the plane. It was four... two on each side of the plane. Where you are incorrect is the reason why the flags had to be removed. Copyright and trademark infringement is against the law.

Right, as I stated earlier I was incorrect. 4 total were removed from Obama's plane, but only 2 were by choice. Can we call that a done deal, Krimson?

Acorn: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...cusations.html

Look, it is a fact that Obama helped them out with their lawsuit against the state of Illinois in the mid 1990's and he taught some Acorn training classes right? So he has been tied to group for over 13 years, Right? That is long enough for me. Just because they have not been convicted of anyhting doesn't mean they are not guilty. We all remember the O.J. case right? Not guilty, sure.

Reverend Wright: That is a fact and Obama has said that it was relevant.

Pretty damn relevant. Don't ya think? I guess reverse racism is OK in this country.

Biden: He was running against Obama for the same position. Didn't McCain, Romney and Guliani go at each other during the republican primaries?

Sorry, but this is what his running mate said of him. Spin it whichever way you wish, but these words were said by the man he chose and I view them to be fairly significant. If Palin said this about McCain the press would have a field day with it. Same thing when Biden asked a guy in a wheel chair to stand up. Can you imagine how many times you would hear about it if Palin said that? Give me a break.

Michelle Obama:
Great cut and Paste from Faux News dated Tuesday, February 19, 2008. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,331288,00.html

Once again, spin this any way you wish to suit your needs or make yourself feel better about it. I used full quotes from Fox news because I didn't want someone saying I got the quote wrong. I didn't realize that someone would make a big deal my copy and paste technique. Are we not allowed to do that here?

The main reason that I posted all of this in the first place is because people will defend him regardless of what he does and I find that funny. In all seriousness, if McCain had these things against him this race wouldn't even be close.

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by JCL

Not sure what to add here, but here goes. Making this up as I go....

FSETH, you originally posted an email that has been widely discredited. Individual bullet points in it are nonsense.

That is not quite true. That was not an e-mail that I recieved and posted. These were things about the man that I don't personally like and I wrote them out. You can spin some of them any way you personally choose.

They are the easy ones to pick out, using sites like factcheck.org. Interestingly, the snopes link you provided proved the point that Obama did not strip his plane of American flags, he removed two trademarked symbols belonging to North American Airlines and kept the US flags on the fuselage.

Not true, he removed one flag on each side of the tail for a total of 2 flags. That is also in the snopes article. You can also look at the before and after photos. I alerady said I was wrong about the two near the front of the plane as they were regestered logos.

Yes, Obama had a relationship with Wright. However, when an email smear has a dozen or so claims, and 10 or so are absurd, the one or two that may be deserving of debate get lost in the noise.

Actually, I posted about 12 items and only a couple can be disputed. His relationship with Raines and Bill Ayers may be questionable and that is my fault. Otherwise;

Did he have a 20+ year relationship with a racist Reverend and only decide to disassociate himself weeks after the media got ahold of it and it looked bad for him?

Yes.

Did he pocket some of the most substantial funds as a senator or congressman from Fannie Mae?

Yes.

Were all of the flags removed from his plane?

Yes.

Did he say he wants to spread the wealth around?

Yes.

Did his wife say what I quoted her saying?

Yes.

Did he say he had been to 57 states and had one to go?

Yes.

Was he on video without his hand over his heart for the National Anthem?

Yes.

Did Bidden say we would be tested shortly after Obama took office?

Yes.

Does Obama's relationship with Acorn go bak about 13 years?

Yes.

Does OBAMA have close ties to ACORN? Not in my opinion. I previously addressed the point about the two one-hour classes he taught for their volunteers (I didn't get an answer to my question as to whether that is considered to be teaching people how to fraudulently register voters). Working as a lawyer for them doesn't make him guilty of anything, otherwise we would have to prosecute half the lawyers in the world (hold your opinions on that one, lol).

Once again his relationship with Acorn goes back 13 years. Having any affiliation with them at all is too much, IMO. It is insignificant to me that "they have not been convicted of anything" as you say. His association with them is not a good quality, IMO.

and context about Michelle Obama's comments. Well documented. No, she didn't say she has never been proud of her country before, IMO. I heard her say that she is now (ie, at this time) really proud of her country because of the opportunities available. It has been taken out of context. Again, my opinion, but you asked.

Here is her quote again from her speech in Milwaukee copied word for word;

"for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback."

she said the following in Madison;

"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change."

Spin how you wish.

Bidden said Obama would be tested, absolutely. Clumsy speech. I happen to think that whoever is elected will get tested. What Bidden was saying is that there are tough times ahead, and your leader is going to need support for what may be some unpopular decisions.

What Biden said and your interpretation may be two different things. He said Obama in his speech, not anyone else. It was said by Biden and directed to Obama and his supporters. Once again, spin how you wish.

Hope that answers your questions.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on these issues.

[FSETH]

By the way Wagner, I was pretty sure I knew who your avitar was when I saw "banned", but with the latest hint, I am even more sure. It has to be Junky?

[Krimson X]

Originally Posted by FSETH

The main reason that I posted all of this in the first place is because people will defend him regardless of what he does and I find that funny. In all seriousness, if McCain had these things against him this race wouldn't even be close.

For the last time on the flag issue. Four trademarked flags were removed. Two on each side of the tail, two on each side of the fuselage. The current version has a flag next to the plane's identification number.

McCain has had some questionable associations, but they do not get the traction in the media like they do with Obama. Lets list them:

1. Todd Palin- Member of seccionist group Alaskan Independent Party;

2. Pastor John Hagee- full time pastor, part time bigot;
Despite McCain's statement in 2000 that "Neither party should be defined by pandering to the outer reaches of American politics and the agents of intolerance, whether they be Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton on the left, or Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell on the right," McCain spent more than a year actively seeking Hagee's endorsement. In February 2008, McCain stated, "I'm very honored by Pastor John Hagee's endorsement today." Only after public outcry did McCain repudiate Hagee.

3. Jim Hensley- Convicted felon, associated with Al Capone, and purported mob boss;
Hensley was Cindy McCain's father, John McCain worked for Hensley as Vice President of Public Relations for Hensley & Co. when he and Cindy first married, and Hensley used his money and influence to launch John McCain's political career.

4. G. Gordon Liddy- Bigoted conservative talk show host, convicted felon, known terrorist and mastermind behind the Watergate break-in;
In 1998 Liddy hosted a campaign fundraiser for McCain and McCain has accepted campaign donations from Liddy over the last a decade, most recently in February 2008. McCain has appeared as a guest on Liddy's radio show multiple times, most recently in November 2007 during the presidential campign when Liddy greeted McCain as "an old friend." During the interview, Mccain stated he was "proud" of Liddy and praised Liddy for his "adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great."

5. Charles Keating- Convicted felon;
John McCain was a close personal friend of Charles Keating, McCain and his family vacationed at Keating's Bahamas mansion, Cindy McCain had investments with Keating

6. Raffaello Follieri- Convicted Felon;
McCain spent his 70th birthday aboard Follieri's yacht in August 2006.

7. Rick Renzi- Under Indictment for conspiracy, wire fraud, money laundering, concealment of money laundering, transactions with criminally derived funds, extortion, insurance fraud and criminal forfeiture;
Until February 2008, Renzi was co-chair of McCain's Arizona 2008 presidential campaign, member of McCain's 2008 National Leadership Team, and a personal friend. In October 2006, McCain stated, "Rick has represented the first district of Arizona with tenacity, honesty and integrity beyond reproach."

8. Rick Davis- Freddie Mac Lobbyist;
Davis is currently John McCain's presidential campaign director, and McCain told Newsweek in 2007 "Rick is a friend, and I trust him."

9. Charles Black- Lobbyist for Dictators;
Charles Black is McCain's current chief strategist and a senior advisor to his 2008 presidential campaign. Black said he is still being paid by his firm and does work for clients in his "spare time".

10. Richard Quinn- White Supremist;
The Washington Post this month described Quinn as the "longtime adviser [who] directed the senator to a crucial victory in the Palmetto State." Politico reported that McCain paid Quinn's firms $184,000. An article that was posted on McCain's website in 2008 — that is no longer available — described Quinn as "a senior political consultant to the McCain campaign."

11. Pastor Rod Parsley- Full time pastor part time bigot;
McCain actively sought Parsley's support to get evangelical votes. In February 2008, McCain stated, "I'm truly honored today to have one of one of the truly great leaders in America, a moral compass, a spiritual guide — Pastor Rod Parsley." Again, after public outrage over Parsley, McCain was forced to repudiate him.

12. Andrew McCain, Resigned Manager Failed Savings and Loan;

13. Board member of U.S. Counsel for World Freedom- Iran-Contra Affair

Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

[Krimson X]

Originally Posted by svanmeter

How did that day long airplane logo thing work out for you?

It will probably never be resolved. Fine by me, though.

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by Krimson X

For the last time on the flag issue. Four trademarked flags were removed. Two on each side of the tail, two on each side of the fuselage. The current version has a flag next to the plane's identification number.

Last time I will mention the flag thing. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Obama flew around in this plane for some time with the original North American logo's and flags on the exterior. Then when he remodeled the plane he chose to remove all flags and logos and replaced them with his own logos. From reading that article it does not sound like he was forced to take the North American logos and flags off because they were trademarked. It sounds like he chose to do so as part of the remodeling from what I understand, so I am not sure what you are talking about. They were only removed to make room for his personal logos.

McCain has had some questionable associations, but they do not get the traction in the media like they do with Obama. Lets list them:

Sweet cut and paste! Where did you get that one? stopthinkvote.com or something? It's old news. http://www.stopthinkvote.com/whatsne...s.html#hensley

If I wanted to waste the next 5 hours of my life I could probably research those and spin them in McCains favor just like a few here have done for Obama.

Especially Raffaello Follieri. That guy had everyone fooled including his super hot girlfriend Anne Hathaway. You can hardly blame McCain for that one.

[Krimson X]

Originally Posted by FSETH

Sweet cut and paste! Where did you get that one? stopthinkvote.com or something? It's old news. http://www.stopthinkvote.com/whatsne...s.html#hensley

If I wanted to waste the next 5 hours of my life I could probably research those and spin them in McCains favor just like a few here have done for Obama.

Especially Raffaello Follieri. That guy had everyone fooled including his super hot girlfriend Anne Hathaway. You can hardly blame McCain for that one.

Yeah, Its probably as old as your cut and paste from Faux News way back on February 19, 2008.

What do you mean five hours? You just spent all day today arguing about plane logos!

Anyway, thanks for the complement.

[FSETH]

Originally Posted by Krimson X

What do you mean five hours? You just spent all day today arguing about plane logos!

I know. Who am I kidding?

Next time I see a plane up close I am going to laugh.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by FSETH

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on these issues.

OK by me. Since we can't agree on many of the facts, let's not even try to agree on whether or not they are in fact issues.