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Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowz (Post 1118501)

at if someone values human life so little they will do drive by shootings and other things like that they would be just as happy to knife someone or beat them to death with a baseball bat.

The difference is you're not going to kill 58 people in 10 minutes with a knife or a baseball bat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakamin (Post 1118542)

The difference is you're not going to kill 58 people in 10 minutes with a knife or a baseball bat.

:thumbup:

To kill someone with a knife or baseball bat you need to be up close and personal, not shooting down from the 32nd floor of a building.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakamin (Post 1118542)

The difference is you're not going to kill 58 people in 10 minutes with a knife or a baseball bat.

But you could use a truck and kill 86 people and wound 458 in 5 minutes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewwynn (Post 1118506)

Simple math: rounding for ease of math: $1000 gun and $0.10/round :

To shoot 100 rounds is $1010 or $10.10 per shot.

To shoot 1000 rounds is $1100 or $1.10 per shot

To shoot 10,000 rounds is $2000 or 20¢ per round.

Again, I understand how any weapon can be used for fun.
What caliber are you referencing as being $.10 per round?

I know plenty of guns in the family that are still in the $3/5 per shot fired.

Responsible gun owners know specifically that gun and alcohol don't mix that is very strongly advised during CCW training.

Obviously a great number of gun owners are very responsible, do all the things to make sure nothing bad happens. Those are not the ones that create the statistics.

There will always be bad situations that arise. The hypothetical example of angry/lose control is a distraction from actual problems like a family member using a handgun for suicide. That's the "epidemic" if there is one in America, not long guns and mass shooting.

Yes, it is true there are great number of suicides using guns. The question is how did someone like that purchase or get access to a gun? Is there a reasonable change to gun laws that would help reduce the problem? That's a rhetorical question.

The states with "shall allow" CCW do not have significantly higher gun homicide than the other states, but might have higher suicide rates so that in my mind is even more important than the drug: gang violence.

Do you have a link to a study the verifies your comments? The ones I've seen aren't able to come up with criteria to reach the +- error factor to be reliable. Primarily because of variables from state to state.

Like my stance with motorcycle helmet laws: I'm ok with law allowing no helmet but I think that people that choose to ride a "donor cycle" as such should be required to have specific insurance to cover their massive hospital bill should they crash. Likewise I would be ok with laws that put liability on the owner when they are negligent with their weapon and it's used to harm: example, a grand kid steals his Grandpa's gun because it's just stuffed in a sofa cushion and kills somebody robbing a store. Leaving a weapon where a minor can access should put that person in jail.

Doing something via gun laws to put grandpa in prison is gun control. That is an example where pro and con gun control laws might agree if there was ever a constructive interchange of views by those that could make the changes.

Most of my male relatives have gun safes. Guns need to be secured that's a given.

As mentioned above, duh you can't have gun injury if no gun so no matter how small the percentage, there will always be more injuries related to guns the more guns there are.

Each year the number of guns in America increases so each year the problem get bigger. How many innocent guns deaths does if take before those that don't think more gun control is necessary will consider change?

If you remove the top ten cities from the statistics, the homicide rate in the USA would be maybe 1.5 or 2 per 100,000 that would put us in a very favorable ranking in the world. I think it's about 5 per 100,000 which isn't great and things can be done to improve that number but not until people realize that no "gun law" will change it even a little. Gun is the symptom not the disease. Cure the disease and gun violence will vaporize. Eg: get job security and keep families together and gun violence will just fade away.

First, you can't remove the top ten cities from the calculation. they are part of America. And, any comparison must be to the 1st world countries that have banned guns. It's not how much smaller the problem than the worst 3rd world countries, it is how much worse we are from the 1st world no guns countries.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

IMO, the wide stanch and angry gaps of personal beliefs and distinct lack of partisan cooperation is such that we are going backward rather than forward. Neither side is ever completely right or wrong. The best practice is always somewhere in between. There is no exception to the rule. I can't imagine that we have not lost some respect from other nations. It's childish, shameful and ridiculous we are repeating and magnifying our lack of working together mistakes that happened as recently as the 60s.

So what was the best way to get easy access to your gun in an X5?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overboost (Post 1118552)

But you could use a truck and kill 86 people and wound 458 in 5 minutes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack

Irrelevant to the discussion though. You can kill 3000+ in a few hours with a plane. Doesn't mean anything when discussing gun control policy.

I'd much rather fight a guy armed with a baseball bat or a knife than a gun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystalworks (Post 1118581)

As 44 once told the Republican Party, if they bring a knife to a fight, we'll bring a gun.

As Sean Connery said in the Movie "The Untouchable" you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crystalworks (Post 1118581)

Irrelevant to the discussion though. You can kill 3000+ in a few hours with a plane. Doesn't mean anything when discussing gun control policy.

I'd much rather fight a guy armed with a baseball bat or a knife than a gun.

So why don't we have a discussion on truck control policy? Why don't we regulate truck rentals with background checks and a waiting period? Seems to me it is a lot easier to get a rental truck than it is a gun. :dunno:

Quote:

I'd much rather fight a guy armed with a baseball bat or a knife than a gun.

That's because you're unarmed... :doh:

Many articles have covered the lack of correlation between gun carry laws and deaths. Here is an example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.699e5262bf21

I was wrong earlier when I said half of the gun deaths are from suicide, apparently it's actually closer to 2/3.

I found a table that split out suicide vs homicide vs accident, I thought it was at wiki or CDC but I'm only finding the total deaths.

The total rate for USA is about 11/100k but homicide is about 4.5. That is high but will not be reduced by *any* kind of new law. Reducing the accessibility of handguns to the mentally disturbed and reduce the incentive to want guns by improving the family unit: children born into a married couple that stays married would reduce gun violence by a tremendous amount. Far more than any gun law. What infuriates me is that people choose to bury their head in the sand and think they can leave the inner city a family disaster and legislate morality from afar.

I scanned the list of states and didn't see any that seemed far off of the mean but I didn't actually make a spreadsheet to get the exact percentages.

So it seems the most significant factor by a factor of 35:1 is suicide over mass shooting.

For clarity: the death by suicide problem is as much as 35-40x as much as the effectively non existent mass shooting hype. Drug war related crime is approximately 15-20x

People that are derailed by the "legacy" outdated disinformation networks they believe that mass shootings are a significant even epidemic problem but it's less than 1% of the problem.

It is apparent that the anti gun crowd will use extremely disingenuous arguments to get people to back them and they do it because honesty won't work. If everybody was honest the public opinion would be a lot different! The "80%" that want more gun laws base that option on absolute nonsense they are told to believe rather than given facts and allow them to make informed decisions.

The "cold dead hands" crowd are not without blame either often using cherry picked info to make their cause look better. Eg. cite cases where CCW saved the day but refuse to believe simple facts that a household with a gun is (duh) like 10x as likely to have an accidental death related to a gun because it exists. Similar problem for suicide: people are far more successful at suicide with a gun then any other method (duh), so of course people are far more likely to die from a gun if the house has a gun. Simple facts.

The odds of improving your safety via self defense vs self inflicted injury are statistically not great as opposed to the increased risk of somebody in the house being injured or killed which is why it's absolutely critical that anybody in the house is properly trained and all guns are locked in a safe when not in use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overboost (Post 1118599)

Because, again, it is irrelevant to gun control. :stickpoke Truck rental is regulated under its own set of circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overboost (Post 1118599)

That's because you're unarmed... :doh:

I don't want to have to carry around a weapon to defend myself. :troutslap

I'd rather both individuals not be carrying a firearm. A bat or a knife I can either out run, or have a chance of over powering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewwynn (Post 1118614)

Many articles have covered the lack of correlation between gun carry laws and deaths. Here is an example:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.699e5262bf21 ... The odds of improving your safety via self defense vs self inflicted injury are statistically not great as opposed to the increased risk of somebody in the house being injured or killed which is why it's absolutely critical that anybody in the house is properly trained and all guns are locked in a safe when not in use.

Again, you are mistaking the point. Suicides affect one person (sometimes one or two other people). Stopping that is not the main goal. Preventing someone from killing 60 people while shooting into a crowd is. Regardless of the total annual numbers involved. Would these same laws positively affect the numbers of suicide firearm fatalities? Most likely, but there's no way to know without doing anything...