Stiffening plate removal / reinstallation

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by bcredliner

Since it is clearly stated in the manual to replace the bolts Dealer and perhaps the tech would be liable if something bad happened because they didn't do so and since the owner pays the bill why would they reuse the bolts? Techs may believe they don't need to be replaced and may be right but what is the reason they reuse them on a customer's car? If you were the owner of the business would you fire them if you found out?

There are several reasons techs might reuse the bolts:

1. A customer is not going to like a line item on the invoice for 6 bolts totaling $100ish.
2. Years of experience working on these vehicles have resulted in no negative occurrences of reusing the bolts.
3. Limited availability of the bolts from local sources.
4. No reported failures of these bolts, accidents, etc from reuse of the bolts.

If I were the owner, no, I would not fire them.

I understand your posting now about replacing the bolts (I think). You meant it as a cautionary piece of extra information to consider when deciding to replace them. I think the only reason you've received push back was the tone of the phrasing. No big deal, just took awhile to work through the intent. That happens on forums sometimes.

[X53Jay4.8is]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

There are several reasons techs might reuse the bolts:

1. A customer is not going to like a line item on the invoice for 6 bolts totaling $100ish.
2. Years of experience working on these vehicles have resulted in no negative occurrences of reusing the bolts.
3. Limited availability of the bolts from local sources.
4. No reported failures of these bolts, accidents, etc from reuse of the bolts.

If I were the owner, no, I would not fire them.

I understand your posting now about replacing the bolts (I think). You meant it as a cautionary piece of extra information to consider when deciding to replace them. I think the only reason you've received push back was the tone of the phrasing. No big deal, just took awhile to work through the intent. That happens on forums sometimes.

+1 these stiffening blots have been reused a number of times in many of the X5s and there has been no significant ill versed effects from using them. Personally I think its more of a revenue generator for BMW parts/service by requiring placement of the bolts.

[X53Jay4.8is]

Originally Posted by williamx5

Good day all!!

Can't we all just agree to disagree?! I reuse all mine on all my X5's... They are tight and don't rattle... Never had one break... I use an impact to get them off and back on... I don't remember ever putting a torque wrench on them... Shrug! I have about ten spare sets cause I hit the YPIY's all the time... I always found it odd they used an all-thread bolt... But, whatever!!

Cheers!!

Thats what most repair shops do use a impact on and off and reuse the bolts.

[cn90]

Originally Posted by bcredliner

...Here's my contribution to your credential dick dance since you think it means something. Accelerated MBA from Harvard paid by employer. 15 plus years in product and brand management and 10 years as division President. All in fortune 500 companies.

No need for chest thumping as others said. You come across as being arrogant, just read the tone/phrasing in your sentences.
Btw, my resume will put your Harvard thingy to shame, but no need for me to do the chest thumping like you did.

And yes, I have built many engines from scratch.

PS: the guys that wrote the BMW service manual could be an engineer straight from school, i.e., rookie. Thus this thread lol.

Food for thought: if the FSM states that one must replace the wheel lugs at every tire change, would people do that lol?

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by cn90

No need for chest thumping as others said. You come across as being arrogant, just read the tone/phrasing in your sentences.
Btw, my resume will put your Harvard thingy to shame, but no need for me to do the chest thumping like you did.

And yes, I have built many engines from scratch.

PS: the guys that wrote the BMW service manual could be an engineer straight from school, i.e., rookie. Thus this thread lol.

Food for thought: if the FSM states that one must replace the wheel lugs at every tire change, would people do that lol?

No food in that thought as it is not a realistic comparison. However, the common sense conclusion is that there is insufficient information to make the best decision.

Tone/phrasing is easily misinterpreted in writing--no body language. My comments are not intended to belittle you or anyone else. They are intended to be focused on the topic. While tone and phrasing can be easily interpreted as arrogant. Comments that I sound like an arm chair general, arrogant and chest pumping are insults. Adding LOL or words that can give you an out of saying you are kidding and don't be so sensitive are BS. In my opinion words like "Btw, my resume will put your Harvard thingy to shame, but no need for me to do the chest thumping like you did" cannot be misinterpreted. They are arrogant, sound like an arm chair general and are King Kong size chest pumping----Oh almost forgot LOL--just kidding.

Being a scientific mind you know how to quantify and prove a theory. And you are very aware that--- that's what everybody does, the manual could be wrong, it looks like and opinions are not enough for a defendable conclusion. You know that directional indicators can be helpful in proving a theory but have some level of risk of being misleading. You also know that to prove a theory it is vital to test the starting point for accuracy.

In this case it seems a decent approach would be to start by finding out if the warning was a misprint or error. If it was intentional and accurate we would want to know the design criteria and test to see if the bolts at to spec. Then test the bolts on an X5 pushed to performance and safety limits. Somewhere there or after other scientific gymnastics we would draw a conclusion. Still doesn't mean conclusion would be correct but it would minimize the risk of error. (Disclaimer-the preceding is a crude broad sweep at a 'scientific process'. It is not intended to complete or orderly.)

But what about common sense? Picture a contest. An X5 will be pushed to its performance and safety design capability limits. We are all contestants. We can request they use new bolts or use the bolts out of our X5s for the test. If the X5 passes a test at max performance and safety the design was based on we win a new BMW of our choice, a billion dollars, a lifetime supply of bananas and a lifetime protection from irritating crap like this. We get to ride in the backseat of the X5 tested and have to give up our X5 if we make the wrong decision. Now the risk and confidence we have in reused bolts is a quantified risk/reward and common sense should prevail and some clarity about what drove our decisions when there was not a clear risk/reward.

[AV8R4AA]

Are you guys talking about the amluminum skid plate?

I took mine off years ago. I use it for a serving tray on popcorn and movie night.

From my limited background in structural engineering, I think BMW wanted to build a tank that seats 5 and is comfortable. Its overbuilt, heavy and very safe.

I'm sure the plate is an integral part of the subframe.
It's up to the owner to decide if it warrants new hardware.
Personally, I reuse them.

Everybody here has vast amounts of personal experience and trainin Unless it's a Yugo, it's prolly built to withstand
a copious amount of poor maintenance and still be reasonably safe.

[jcattletown]

I took my X5 to dealership several times for repairing oil leaks, and they removed the plate every time to check out where the leak came from. If they were required to use new bolts every time they removed the plate, those bolts should look very new. However, when I found another fluid leak, I took down the plate myself and would like to check it before bringing in the car again. I saw those bolts were old and the tips of all of them were rusted. Obviously, the dealership did not replace the bolts in previous repairs. So I think using the old bolts is fine and it is not critical of the safety of the vehicle.

Originally Posted by AV8R4AA

Are you guys talking about the amluminum skid plate?

I took mine off years ago. I use it for a serving tray on popcorn and movie night.

From my limited background in structural engineering, I think BMW wanted to build a tank that seats 5 and is comfortable. Its overbuilt, heavy and very safe.

I'm sure the plate is an integral part of the subframe.
It's up to the owner to decide if it warrants new hardware.
Personally, I reuse them.

Everybody here has vast amounts of personal experience and trainin Unless it's a Yugo, it's prolly built to withstand
a copious amount of poor maintenance and still be reasonably safe.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by jcattletown

I took my X5 to dealership several times for repairing oil leaks, and they removed the plate every time to check out where the leak came from. If they were required to use new bolts every time they removed the plate, those bolts should look very new. However, when I found another fluid leak, I took down the plate myself and would like to check it before bringing in the car again. I saw those bolts were old and the tips of all of them were rusted. Obviously, the dealership did not replace the bolts in previous repairs. So I think using the old bolts is fine and it is not critical of the safety of the vehicle.

This has been debated sooooo many times. The vast majority agree with you and reuse the bolts based on lots of members that have done so and had no problems, dealer input or what their dealer(s) has done.

If you are comfortable reusing the bolts without the knowledge as to why BMW says not to then it certainly is a cost savings. Consider the bolts are stretch to torque bolts which you can only do done once and bear in mind a single experience or the entire tally here may be accurate but the sampling is far too small to accept the results as statistically accurate. And it won't ever be. It is still an assumption either way.

I couldn't care less what anybody does and I get lots of flack when I post this input. If I didn't think it was important to throw in each time this comes up I certainly wouldn't keep doing it.

Again, the vast majority reuse the bolts.

[upallnight]

Originally Posted by jcattletown

I took my X5 to dealership several times for repairing oil leaks, and they removed the plate every time to check out where the leak came from. If they were required to use new bolts every time they removed the plate, those bolts should look very new. However, when I found another fluid leak, I took down the plate myself and would like to check it before bringing in the car again. I saw those bolts were old and the tips of all of them were rusted. Obviously, the dealership did not replace the bolts in previous repairs. So I think using the old bolts is fine and it is not critical of the safety of the vehicle.

The aluminum plate is a structural member because it acts as a diaphragm, but if you bolted a piece of plywood there it would act as a diaphragm also. I believe that the main purpose of the aluminum plate is to collect fluids that drip from the engine. If you look at the plate it also has an absorbent material lying on top of it. This absorbent material does not contribute to the structural capacity of the aluminum plate, but it does retain a copious amount of fluid. After all, when you pay that kind of money for a BMW you don't want the BMW leaking fluid all over the marble floor in the garage.

Pass me the Grey Poupon!

[EODguy]

Wait!! Marble? How gauche... Now granite on the other hand...

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