Sprintbooster

[Noodle555]

Originally Posted by sedate_driver

Noodle555
I'm sure you didn't mean it but your choice of words isn't conducive to calm discussion. I'd suggest you stay away from inflammatory words like "stupid thing." It's way to easy to misunderstand and think you were calling into question the other member's intelligence and I'm sure you didn't mean to do that.

On facts, you will also need to understand that it is only natural to discount your assertions if you haven't tried the product. Your first assertion that it becomes more sensitive because it remaps the throttle response is correct, is a fact, and is what SB claims. Your second assertion that you can achieve the same thing by mashing your pedal to the floor is no longer a fact. It contradicts your first assertion because remapping the throttle response clearly will produce a different result no matter how much or little you mash it. Mashing the pedal may get you to the same signal strength and, if you have a very finely modulated foot, even at about the same time as the SB but what you won't get is the response linearity. Whether linearity is important to you or not is a matter of subjectivity and is no longer a fact.

Lastly, many of us would appreciate it if you would stop referring to a higher authority as if that would substantiate your claim. I have an M3 stories really don't add much to the discussion since the differences between vehicles are just too great to make meaningful comparisons, at least at the esoteric level of these discussions. I also have a Sport button on my M car and can tell you the overall vehicle response is markedly different to a SB with an autotranny. Speaking of which, I actually wish my X5 was a manual like what the Europeans have. I think they "dumbed" it down for the North American market. Whoops...my bad - shouldn't have used dumb; I meant manuals wouldn't sell here.

I hope these observations help you understand the other members' response.

lol

Didn't you send me a link on how to read. Well why don't you read this technical analysis.

...or let me again sumarize. You get the same results by mashing your pedal.

You may argue to your hearts content but I really have no more to add here. Have a great day

[JCL]

Originally Posted by sedate_driver

.... Your first assertion that it becomes more sensitive because it remaps the throttle response is correct, is a fact, and is what SB claims. Your second assertion that you can achieve the same thing by mashing your pedal to the floor is no longer a fact. It contradicts your first assertion because remapping the throttle response clearly will produce a different result no matter how much or little you mash it. Mashing the pedal may get you to the same signal strength and, if you have a very finely modulated foot, even at about the same time as the SB but what you won't get is the response linearity. Whether linearity is important to you or not is a matter of subjectivity and is no longer a fact.

Interesting comments on linearity. The link that used to be in the first few posts in this thread, and which is now attached above, shows some independent third party measurements from the throttle position sensor relative to the SB output. It appears from that testing, and I am assuming here that the MB model is pretty similar to the BMW model of the SB, that the SB applies a 30% gain to the throttle out put voltage. That gain appears to be constant from all the graphs in that attachment. That implies that there is no change in linearity of the signal with or without the SB. That conclusion also matches the SB web site graphs, which approximate two straight lines, but with different slopes.

A case could be made that a linear output voltage is not the same as a linear butt dyno evaluation. Perhaps much more throttle signal is required to get what feels linear to a trained driver, analagous to a stereo volume control that increases sound pressures exponentially. That is a rough analogy, but hopefully it makes the point. I agree that whether linearity is important is a subjective thing. However, the fact remains that the SB doesn't change the throttle linearity according to the tests.

[rocky1536]

Originally Posted by Noodle555

lol

Didn't you send me a link on how to read. Well why don't you read this technical analysis.

...or let me again sumarize. You get the same results by mashing your pedal.

You may argue to your hearts content but I really have no more to add here. Have a great day

Nope, that was me who sent the link (how ironic!)

I'm glad you have nothing more to add, considering you haven't even tried a product (and done a GREAT job dodging the question) and have added absolutely nothing constructive.

Have fun mashing your pedal!

[Noodle555]

Originally Posted by rocky1536

Nope, that was me who sent the link (how ironic!)

I'm glad you have nothing more to add, considering you haven't even tried a product (and done a GREAT job dodging the question) and have added absolutely nothing constructive.

Have fun mashing your pedal!

You, sedate, what's the difference. Not like I have the inclination to keep track of who said what. But you rocky amaze me, you keep coming back for more, lol.

What did you add may I ask??? A bunch of misinformation.

Even in the face of the overwhelming technical evidence provided you still ask what constructive posts I have made. Wow!!! Are you that blinkered??? You obviously have the need to justify your somewhat ill thought out expenditure. Sure, I'll have fun getting the same results you just got ripped off for

My posts may have helped other not getting ripped off. Now that's constructive

[Pablo]

Does the Sprintbooster impact warranty and could it possibly do any harm to vehicle?

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Pablo

Does the Sprintbooster impact warranty and could it possibly do any harm to vehicle?

Very unlikely on both counts, IMO.

[sedate_driver]

Originally Posted by JCL

Interesting comments on linearity. The link that used to be in the first few posts in this thread, and which is now attached above, shows some independent third party measurements from the throttle position sensor relative to the SB output. It appears from that testing, and I am assuming here that the MB model is pretty similar to the BMW model of the SB, that the SB applies a 30% gain to the throttle out put voltage. That gain appears to be constant from all the graphs in that attachment. That implies that there is no change in linearity of the signal with or without the SB. That conclusion also matches the SB web site graphs, which approximate two straight lines, but with different slopes.

A case could be made that a linear output voltage is not the same as a linear butt dyno evaluation. Perhaps much more throttle signal is required to get what feels linear to a trained driver, analagous to a stereo volume control that increases sound pressures exponentially. That is a rough analogy, but hopefully it makes the point. I agree that whether linearity is important is a subjective thing. However, the fact remains that the SB doesn't change the throttle linearity according to the tests.

Being a newcomer, I appreciate Noodle's reposting of the white paper. I wasn't aware of it and the author's research helps me understand why and how the SB alters the car's characteristics. Deducing that the SB simply amplifies the signal certainly explains his observations.

On the matter of linearity, I have a couple of observations and questions. If I'm reading Figures 1 and 3 correctly, the x axis is a time scale and the y axis the voltage.

Figure 1 compares the accelerator pedal voltage to the throttle position sensor voltage and normalizes the two so the voltage ranges match. That seems to make sense. He makes no mention of normalizing the time scale so we are left to assume either his measuring equipment is synchronized or that he matched times at peak voltage. In this instance it probably doesn't make much of a difference.

Figure 3 compares accelerator pedal voltage response between stock and SB. Again we are left to assume the times are somehow matched so that the start of each voltage curve begins at the same time in pedal travel and the SB doesn't advance the signal as shown on their website. If SB's claim is correct and the signal is advanced and not simply amplified, then I'd argue that could translate into a more linear feel when you factor in the zero voltage at the beginning of the pedal travel. Figure 4 seems to suggest it doesn't advance it but because he normalized the voltage curves, it isn't that clear. I'd be curious to see a graph of the physical pedal position vs. voltage because that's what the driver would feel. All this though is really picking at nits and brings me to my next point.

It relates to the other major part of Mr. Bipes' paper, that of the overall effect on the vehicle characteristic, the "feel" as some would say or butt dyno to use your lingo. His explanation of the adaptive throttle and kick down position certainly makes sense and I'm sure similar systems exist in the BMWs. BTW, except for the things I noted above, I think Bipes' paper was quite well thought out. It could very well be that amplifying the accelerator signal simply tricks the car into staying in aggressive mode and that's what we feel, no shortened response time, no power gain. Then so be it, that's what I want. I'd much rather be able to control my own response than continually second guess what the vehicle will choose for me. Perhaps if BMW had a nanny off switch I'd be happy with that too. I know many M drivers deliberately switch off traction control and such other devices for pretty much the same reason.

Lastly, is it a ripoff as some here would say? Wouldn't that really depend on what's important to you? Is a 15 year old Scotch really double the worth of a 12 year old? Is adding that after market spoiler really going to improve your performance or even turn heads? Or for that matter, is a BMW really worth the premium over a Honda? I'm sure the BMW engineers had very good reasons for programing their systems the way they do but I find certain things annoying and decided to correct them to suit my taste.

Sorry JCL for the extended rant and veering off into areas outside of your response. I certainly don't intend to lump you together with the self rightuous group but that's what you get for being a reasoned debater. I hope you don't mind.

[JCL]

I don't mind at all. I think we need more reasoned debates, personally.

My interpretation is that the time scales are matched on the graphs. I do think that there is no elimination of delay, or power gain, but simply a more aggressive throttle response. I had a Z4 with the same sport button, and it changed the throttle gain. Nothing more. It did change the accelerator pedal characteristics, and thus the car felt very different. It was a novelty, and I rarely used it. I found that it was easier to match revs with it off.

I only think it is a ripoff to the extent that SB create confusion around what it does, and leave the impression that it changes the power. Some purchasers perpetuate that. If an altered throttle pedal makes the vehicle better for any individual owner, then that is great, it is just a question of what that is worth to the individual.

[sedate_driver]

Originally Posted by JCL

I don't mind at all. I think we need more reasoned debates, personally.

My interpretation is that the time scales are matched on the graphs. I do think that there is no elimination of delay, or power gain, but simply a more aggressive throttle response. I had a Z4 with the same sport button, and it changed the throttle gain. Nothing more. It did change the accelerator pedal characteristics, and thus the car felt very different. It was a novelty, and I rarely used it. I found that it was easier to match revs with it off.

I only think it is a ripoff to the extent that SB create confusion around what it does, and leave the impression that it changes the power. Some purchasers perpetuate that. If an altered throttle pedal makes the vehicle better for any individual owner, then that is great, it is just a question of what that is worth to the individual.

You're probably right about the time scales. So I guess we were looking for a sport button all along! I wonder what BMW would have charged for the same option right out of the box?

In any event, thanks, I appreciate the enlightenment.

[rocky1536]

Originally Posted by Noodle555

You, sedate, what's the difference. Not like I have the inclination to keep track of who said what. But you rocky amaze me, you keep coming back for more, lol.

What did you add may I ask??? A bunch of misinformation.

Even in the face of the overwhelming technical evidence provided you still ask what constructive posts I have made. Wow!!! Are you that blinkered??? You obviously have the need to justify your somewhat ill thought out expenditure. Sure, I'll have fun getting the same results you just got ripped off for

My posts may have helped other not getting ripped off. Now that's constructive

I'll shorten my last response in an effort to focus you and hopefully validate experience you have had with this product.

Have you ever actually used sprint booster, or are you a "band wagon basher"?