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  #11  
Old 09-22-2021, 03:36 PM
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Not sure whats up.... first, my use was in the context of a one-liner joke. As you might imagine, there are a few options for word choice there, depending on what it is you are trying to achieve with the joke. So dunno


Turns out we have a good stock of ivermectin in the barn. I was joking with my wife we could pop it on ebay, maybe get a nice dinner out of it. She wants to keep it just in case the horses get covid. Or something like that.
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  #12  
Old 11-13-2021, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
Now in early July 2021, with the Delta variant of the COVID-19 virus expected to become the dominant version of the virus in the next few months, the concerns of the threat of the virus spreading even faster to those still unvaccinated have increased dramatically. It is the most transmissible version of the virus so far, especially in the areas of the country where the total vaccination rate is still quite low and at significant risk.

We now know that it is not just catching the virus and dealing with its immediate health concerns, but the growing number of adverse after effects to the health of people of all ages, once they are lucky enough to survive and essentially recover, referred to as “long-haul symptoms”. Those symptoms and affects include shortness of breath, chest pain, physical fatigue, compromised sense of smell, reduced lung capabilities and diminished mental/cognitive functions described as “brain fog”. I assume we will continue to learn more as time goes by.

What is very disheartening to me is a recent national poll that indicated that just over a quarter of those surveyed said that even now, they have decided to still not get vaccinated. While I can understand their earlier reluctance to getting vaccinated, based on mis-information, false myths and lack of trust of government officials, it makes no sense now. The vast majority of trusted messengers, specifically health professionals, including doctors and nurses, are in agreement that the possible health risks associated with the vaccine’s pales in comparison to the potential detrimental and deadly affects of the COVID-19 virus to those who are not vaccinated.

I get it that Americans have always been an individualistic people who don’t like being told what to do. But in times of crisis, they have historically still had the capacity to form what Alexis de Tocqueville called a “social body,” a coherent community capable of collective action. The basic sense of “peoplehood”, of belonging to a common enterprise with a shared destiny, is exactly what’s lacking today. Researchers and reporters who talk to the vaccine-hesitant find that the levels of distrust, suspicion and alienation that have marred our politics are now slowing down the vaccination process. They find people who doubt the competence of the medical establishment or any establishment, who assume as a matter of course that their fellow countrymen are out to con, deceive and harm them.

This mentality, epitomized by the sentiment of: “the only person you can trust is yourself”, has a tendency to cause people to conceive of themselves as individuals and not as citizens. A recent survey of people who were refusing to get a COVID-19 vaccine revealed that they often used an arguments such as: “I’m not especially vulnerable. I may have already gotten the virus. If I get it in the future, it won’t be that bad. Why should I take a risk on an experimental vaccine?” They are thinking and reasoning, mostly on a personal basis, about what’s right for them as individuals more than what’s right for the nation and the most vulnerable people in it. It’s not that they have rebuked their responsibilities as citizens; it apparently never occurred to them that they might have any. When asked to think in broader terms, they seemed surprised and off balance.

For me, the overwhelming relief of now being fully vaccinated, (having eagerly received the two doses of the Pfizer vaccine back in March 2021), is that now I do not have to worry as much about catching the virus, but also about harboring the COVID-19 virus asymptomatically and passing it on to someone else, especially a family member who has a compromised immune system, causing them to get sick. At this point, I believe that with just few exceptions, everyone should get vaccinated.

I recognize, but disagree that general public safety concerns should take religious beliefs into account, as an excuse to not getting vaccinated. I accept that there are some people who have legitimate health issues that would preclude their getting vaccinated. But for everyone else, stop the silly bribing inducements by various States. We are now at the point where I believe that the local, state and federal governments should mandate that the reluctant, the recalcitrant and the reckless, all get inoculated against this virus so we can finally get this world-wide pandemic under control. Let employers make being vaccinated a requirement for working there. Also, let retailers of all sizes, determine whether or not their customers need to wear face coverings in order to enter and patronize their stores. While personal freedoms should be protected, they should not be ranked higher than the healthy well-being of the broader community in our country. This vaccination issue is not about individuals, but about all of us, collectively living and working together.

Alas, I am afraid that even if what I am advocating does occur, there will still be a significant number of Americans who will still refuse to get vaccinated. Then, what we may ultimately experience is what philosophers Hebert Spencer, Charles Darwin and Adam Smith have simplistically theorized as “survival of the fittest”. This speculation can also be interpreted as survival of the most intelligent, those who seek out honest, truthful, factual information based on both science and experience. The people who have been vaccinated have observed, understand and acknowledge the high degree of protection against the virus that the vast majority of people who have been vaccinated against COVID-19, are proving to be mostly immune to the spreading virus or, if they catch it, their symptoms are not as serious. The odds are against the people who refuse to get vaccinated since they will be much more susceptible to catch the Delta variant of the COVID-19 virus and suffer its consequences and either die or suffer long-term health issues. The sad reality is that this likely outcome is avoidable if these people were not as naïve, ignorant or untrusting of science and would just get vaccinated.

AVB-AMG
Your post, which is a fantastic summary was in July. It is now November and is still valid. The points of view have become a little narrower as some of the excuses, the politics, the misinformation and conspiracy theories have been so thoroughly debunked that even the most extreme of vaccine haters don't use them anymore.

But changes are far from enough and my opinion is the remaining citizens against the vaccine are never going to embrace the vaccine. I too support mandates to protect those that refuse to be vaccinated from themselves and more importantly the majority of the country that have been vaccinated and follow the guidelines. It's not so much how they can impact the vaccinated but that the longer we take to reach a level of herd immunity the longer there will be self inflicted compromises to everyones' freedom.

I don't have any hope that anything worthwhile is going to change without more bottom up penalties and top down mandates. At some point insurance carriers are going to make cost of coverage and insurability decisions based on being vaccinated or not. Or worse yet, spread the cost around to include those that protected themselves rather than invited COVID infection. While not all COVID related, I expect the supply train to continue to be a major issue that will restrict new job growth and contribute to inflation.

I wonder what those that are anti vaccine think is the solution to the COVID interference on our freedom. What would they do to get COVID under control? How do we get back to normal?
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  #13  
Old 11-14-2021, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
Your post, which is a fantastic summary was in July. It is now November and is still valid. The points of view have become a little narrower as some of the excuses, the politics, the misinformation and conspiracy theories have been so thoroughly debunked that even the most extreme of vaccine haters don't use them anymore.

But changes are far from enough and my opinion is the remaining citizens against the vaccine are never going to embrace the vaccine. I too support mandates to protect those that refuse to be vaccinated from themselves and more importantly the majority of the country that have been vaccinated and follow the guidelines. It's not so much how they can impact the vaccinated but that the longer we take to reach a level of herd immunity the longer there will be self inflicted compromises to everyones' freedom.

I don't have any hope that anything worthwhile is going to change without more bottom up penalties and top down mandates. At some point insurance carriers are going to make cost of coverage and insurability decisions based on being vaccinated or not. Or worse yet, spread the cost around to include those that protected themselves rather than invited COVID infection. While not all COVID related, I expect the supply train to continue to be a major issue that will restrict new job growth and contribute to inflation.

I wonder what those that are anti vaccine think is the solution to the COVID interference on our freedom. What would they do to get COVID under control? How do we get back to normal?
bcredliner:

Thank you for your response. It is sad to think that in the four months since I posted my long-winded opinion on COVID-19 vaccinations, that we are still at a point where a significant number of people still refuse, for all sorts of reasons, not to get vaccinated. At least now children of parents who know better, can finally get a lower dosage vaccination to add them to the immunized. Granted, we now also realize that being vaccinated does not necessarily mean that one will not catch the COVID-19 virus, since we have seen many break-through cases of those who have been vaccinated. But the science seems to be holding true that the vast majority of those breakthrough cases are not that severe and that those infected are for the most part not having to be hospitalized. We know that getting the COVID-19 vaccine is not going to mean that one is 100% immune to getting the virus… no vaccine is completely effective. But if it turns out that going forward, that we may need to get some sort of COVID-19 booster vaccination on an annual basis, along with an influenza vaccination, then so be it. I also find it amazing that those who are still not vaccinated do not look at the statistics in every state where over 90-95% of those people who are hospitalized with the COVID-19 virus were NOT vaccinated. That really should tell you all you need to know about getting vaccinated. Yet unfortunately, there is a hard-core segment of the U.S. population who are stubbornly and adamantly against getting vaccinated and will not get any vaccine, regardless of whether or not employers, professional sporting events, musical concerts or restaurants, museums or other cultural institutions require proof of vaccination in order to gain admittance. They are gambling that they will survive this virus pandemic without suffering too badly. It is a low odds chance they are taking in that choice, IMHO. Why take such an unnecessary chance with one’s health and life?

FYI, I now have mixed feelings about mandates for getting the COVID-19 vaccine. I think that the private sector, meaning any private companies, firms, cultural institutions, hospitals, Doctor’s offices, educational institutions, retail and hospitality establishments, and entertainment venues are all perfectly within their legal rights to impose mandates that their employees and patrons, guests and visitors all show proof of COVID-19 vaccination in order to be employed or gain entry and admittance. I recently attended a professional NFL football game where every fan of the 60,000 who entered the stadium, was required to show their CDC issues COVID-19 vaccination card as proof of vaccination. That gave me a level of comfort that I needed to attend, as well as the fact that it was an outdoor venue.

I am now concerned that with more States imposing vaccination mandates, as well as the Federal government that it could be a political disaster in the making, giving the Republicans one more issue to trumpet in the coming elections in 2022 and 2024. I am sympathetic to some of the arguments that the Federal government is overstepping its authority, even if they have valid, good intentions. While I do think that the U.S. armed services should be able to require all of their troops to be vaccinated, I am not so sure about local law enforcement offices and firefighters. It is a complicated, slippery-slope that has no elegant solution, since taking a hard line could very well lead to some unwanted consequences. Time will tell….

So, at this point, while we may possibly see a 5th surge of the number of people testing positive for the virus as we enter the winter months of 2021/2022, I do think that even with continued virus mutations, that our country will slowly evolve to the majority of our population either being fully vaccinated, (two shots, plus a booster shot), or those who have caught the COVID-19 virus and whose bodies have generated some natural antibodies against the virus. Yet even with that case, we will continue to have serious infections and deaths that probably could have been prevented with people choosing to become vaccinated. Another real concern that I have, which will only be learned in the coming months/years, is exactly what the detrimental effects are on one’s body and mind due to “Long COVID”, the lingering, long-term and/or after effects of having caught the COVID-19 virus.

AVB-AMG
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Old 11-15-2021, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
FYI, I now have mixed feelings about mandates for getting the COVID-19 vaccine. I think that the private sector, meaning any private companies, firms, cultural institutions, hospitals, Doctor’s offices, educational institutions, retail and hospitality establishments, and entertainment venues are all perfectly within their legal rights to impose mandates that their employees and patrons, guests and visitors all show proof of COVID-19 vaccination in order to be employed or gain entry and admittance. I recently attended a professional NFL football game where every fan of the 60,000 who entered the stadium, was required to show their CDC issues COVID-19 vaccination card as proof of vaccination. That gave me a level of comfort that I needed to attend, as well as the fact that it was an outdoor venue.

I am now concerned that with more States imposing vaccination mandates, as well as the Federal government that it could be a political disaster in the making, giving the Republicans one more issue to trumpet in the coming elections in 2022 and 2024. I am sympathetic to some of the arguments that the Federal government is overstepping its authority, even if they have valid, good intentions. While I do think that the U.S. armed services should be able to require all of their troops to be vaccinated, I am not so sure about local law enforcement offices and firefighters. It is a complicated, slippery-slope that has no elegant solution, since taking a hard line could very well lead to some unwanted consequences. Time will tell….

So, at this point, while we may possibly see a 5th surge of the number of people testing positive for the virus as we enter the winter months of 2021/2022, I do think that even with continued virus mutations, that our country will slowly evolve to the majority of our population either being fully vaccinated, (two shots, plus a booster shot), or those how have caught the COVID-19 virus and whose bodies have generated some natural antibodies against the virus. Yet even with that case, we will continue to have serious infections and deaths that probably could have been prevented with people choosing to become vaccinated. Another real concern that I have, which will only be learned in the coming months/years, is exactly what the detrimental effects are on one’s body and mind due to “Long COVID”, the lingering, long-term and/or after effects of having caught the COVID-19 virus.

AVB-AMG
It's nice to hear that one can look at the information as it comes in and evolve views in response to that. I have also changed my opinions/thoughts on mandates and different requirements in the private sector. Much of which echo yours.

We chose a different decision to those who remain unvaccinated (though we are waiting a few months for our children's vaccines as they do not attend public school or day care and my son won't be eligible til January so waiting for them both) for myself and my family. All have access to the data/information available now and can make their own conclusions. It's their risk after all, not mine, given the efficacy of the vaccines. I wish them the best and hope there are no ill consequences. Same as I hope there are no long term consequences to getting the vaccine. I doubt there will be, but... time will tell. Combine the vaccine efficacy with wearing masks indoors and not attending large indoor gatherings and I feel my family and I are fairly safe. The fear of the pandemic has faded into an exhaustion as I hear the two different sides attacking each other and devolving into the typical "us vs. them" tribe mentality. But, that's the world we live in.
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Old 11-15-2021, 06:47 PM
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Requirements for entry into venues, large and small businesses are a better solution than mandates but I don't believe that will do enough soon enough.

I'm still for federal mandates that are based on a level of infection in a given area, a trigger point. If all states and local governments followed the recommended guidelines it wouldn't be necessary but they clearly don't. Keep the state rate of infection below a threshold or mandates kick in. If a state can control the level of infection without mandates that's great. If they can't or won't more extensive measures are appropriate anyway. Trigger point is when the rate of infection exceeds 1 person infecting more than 2 two others. IMO, mandates with trigger points should be a bill voted on by congress and see which way it goes. A national health crisis should not involve politics but it seems clear that if politics were removed from the table we would have be in far better place than we are now. For the most part, the COVID us verses them, the tribal behavior, is political party based.

I am not in the camp of each to their own, whatever will be will be. While this nation has been arguing and postering and spitting out overwhelming misinformation and lies without any consequences, attacking political competitors based on their COVID position, etc, we have lost 3/4 of a million citizens. Put one coffin in each X5 and they would stretch almost coast to coast. Will a million take the politics out of it? 1.5? 3? Will there be enough X5s to put coffins in? The freedom of those that have been vaccinated is restricted not only because of the non vaccinated but because our political tribes have taken the issue outside of any concept of how a successful democracy works. IMO waiting for the natural order of things, time or only the strong survive to decide what prevails is out of the question.

I hear loud and clear the anti-vaccine 'rationale' about why they aren't vaccinated. What I would like to hear from them is what we should do to get COVID under control. The easy part is to disagree with vaccination. The hard part is to have an alternative solution that has merit. Since they are so adamant about not being vaccinated, what is their solution to get COVID under control?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...irus-vaccines/
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Old 11-16-2021, 02:20 AM
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The freedom of those that have been vaccinated is restricted not only because of the non vaccinated but because our political tribes have taken the issue outside of any concept of how a successful democracy works.
To the bolded, how, specifically?

And to the italicized/underlined, this happened before Trump and coronavirus were a thing. Welcome to post-Citizens United American politics.

I believe individual responsibility is a dead concept in America. Which makes me sad. I don't want regulation to save every life or prevent every accident. I won't even go on a lake anymore because the park police suck all the fun and risk (and funds from my wallet) out of the activity. Will never own a boat or personal water craft (even though I really enjoy those things) because the bureaucracy involved to enjoy such things is out of control.

Take the Astroworld tragedy. Is it a tragedy? Of course. Are each of those concert goers as culpable as the promoters? Yeah, this wasn't a Celine Dion concert. They undertook a risky activity. The father whose poor 9yo just died should be charged with child endangerment. But I'm ranting now... excuse the rum-charged tangent.
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Old 11-16-2021, 11:12 AM
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The CDC and all of the pharma companies have stated that the vaccine does NOT prevent you from getting the virus and it does NOT prevent you from transmitting it.

So what about the instance where one has had the virus, had mild or no symptoms and is a generally healthy individual? That person now has immunity (perhaps not as strong as the vaccine provides but that's still being evaluated). The vaccine which is likely 99.999999% safe has not undergone the necessary medical trials (decades worth) to state with absolute certainty that it will not have negative long term side effects.

I am not even going to discuss the legal implications of the different legal orders being passed now because that's a slippery slope into a political debate and generally I feel that anyone that gets into politics usually ends up as slime of the earth even if they didn't start out as such.

So now we are at a point where the vaccine may help one survive the effects of the virus. That's it. This is where we are medically speaking, vaccinated people are still dying though at a lower rate.

So why should one be forced by any government body to vaccinate if the only person it really affects is the person being vaccinated?

In the words of Ice Cube "If you're scared, go to church."
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Old 11-16-2021, 04:06 PM
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To the bolded, how, specifically?

And to the italicized/underlined, this happened before Trump and coronavirus were a thing. Welcome to post-Citizens United American politics.

I believe individual responsibility is a dead concept in America. Which makes me sad. I don't want regulation to save every life or prevent every accident. I won't even go on a lake anymore because the park police suck all the fun and risk (and funds from my wallet) out of the activity. Will never own a boat or personal water craft (even though I really enjoy those things) because the bureaucracy involved to enjoy such things is out of control.

Take the Astroworld tragedy. Is it a tragedy? Of course. Are each of those concert goers as culpable as the promoters? Yeah, this wasn't a Celine Dion concert. They undertook a risky activity. The father whose poor 9yo just died should be charged with child endangerment. But I'm ranting now... excuse the rum-charged tangent.
The unvaccinated are contributing to the continuation and severity of the COVID health crisis. The unvaccinated put even those vaccinated at risk. The unvaccinated contribute to the difficulties and expense of running a business. The unvaccinated have contribute to the limitations of goods, services and entertainment. The comeback is always we are all free to choose what we do so the unvaccinated aren't limiting anything. My response is how our forefathers defined freedom in a Democracy. Freedom ends when it infringes on the freedom of others.

No, it didn't start with Trump. I will say that he spent his entire presidency, and still is, focused on expanding the division
and tribal behavior in the country and has been alarmingly successful. That is not politically based. It is my opinion based on how much general and political behavior has changed in the last 5-6 years verses the last 50. Certainly he has some good company from both parties but he has a big stage and huge following to influence. Non-compliance with the obvious is more often than not the reason for annoying rules and regulations that feel like bureaucracy. The COVID health crisis is one such example.

I am looking at boats. I used to have one and one of my best memories was putting the pedal to the metal and heading out into Lake Michigan until I couldn't see shore, turning off the motor and just sitting there rocking in the waves.
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Old 11-16-2021, 05:05 PM
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The CDC and all of the pharma companies have stated that the vaccine does NOT prevent you from getting the virus and it does NOT prevent you from transmitting it.
That's true but the instances of breakthrough infections is low and the severity of breakthrough cases are less. If you are saying the vaccine is not effective that is false.
So what about the instance where one has had the virus, had mild or no symptoms and is a generally healthy individual? That person now has immunity (perhaps not as strong as the vaccine provides but that's still being evaluated). The vaccine which is likely 99.999999% safe has not undergone the necessary medical trials (decades worth) to state with absolute certainty that it will not have negative long term side effects.

While the approval of the vaccine was expedited there was no compromise in the SOP to reach approval. The extent of immunity of those that have had COVID varies and declines over time. That is the reason the CDC recommends still getting vaccinated. Approval of medications are not and have not been a decades process. It is safer to be vaccinated than risking the documented longterm effects that can come from having COVID. There will never be an absolute certainty.

I am not even going to discuss the legal implications of the different legal orders being passed now because that's a slippery slope into a political debate and generally I feel that anyone that gets into politics usually ends up as slime of the earth even if they didn't start out as such.

So now we are at a point where the vaccine may help one survive the effects of the virus. That's it. This is where we are medically speaking, vaccinated people are still dying though at a lower rate.
The percentage of deaths from breakthrough cases is extremely small. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-vaccines.html The number of breakthrough cases should not be used as a reason to not get vaccinated. Even if the percentage was ten times higher the risk of hospitalization, ICU stay or death is mountains higher for those unvaccinated.

So why should one be forced by any government body to vaccinate if the only person it really affects is the person being vaccinated?
No restrictions or mandates would be considered if the unvaccinated were not the primary cause the virus continues to impact so many lives. I am free to drive whatever speed I want. OOPS I was going 90 when I rear ended your X5. What's the problem? You are free to stay off the roads. Would you like some 'mandates'd to see that I am less tempted to speed or be taken off the road?
In the words of Ice Cube "If you're scared, go to church."
I think the number of vaccinated people that are scared is extremely small. I would say they are well informed and justifiably, reasonably cautious. If God is brought into this what about do onto others as you would have them do unto you.
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Old 11-16-2021, 05:55 PM
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The unvaccinated are contributing to the continuation and severity of the COVID health crisis. The unvaccinated put even those vaccinated at risk. The unvaccinated contribute to the difficulties and expense of running a business. The unvaccinated have contribute to the limitations of goods, services and entertainment.
I understand that position. But how are they doing all of those things you listed, on their own? For example, the limitation of goods is a problem through many factors, chiefly supply and demand. Demand from all people, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. Supply has not recovered from the shut downs before a vaccine was available.

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The comeback is always we are all free to choose what we do so the unvaccinated aren't limiting anything.
That may be, but as above, what are they limiting and how are they solely responsible for it? Personally, we have no more limitations with the vaccines available now to all in our family.

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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
No, it didn't start with Trump. I will say that he spent his entire presidency, and still is, focused on expanding the division
and tribal behavior in the country and has been alarmingly successful. That is not politically based. It is my opinion based on how much general and political behavior has changed in the last 5-6 years verses the last 50. Certainly he has some good company from both parties but he has a big stage and huge following to influence. Non-compliance with the obvious is more often than not the reason for annoying rules and regulations that feel like bureaucracy. The COVID health crisis is one such example.
Pelosi, Schumer, McConnel, Paul, they are all thankful for Trump. They are more celebrity now (and can make more money) than they ever were before. And they all love it. The media too. CNN's viewership (maybe Fox's too?) has never been higher thanks to the Trump train. To the bolded, that may be true, but it's a non-issue unless you are taking as radical an approach to compliance as they are to non-compliance. Let people die, or get injured, or sick, or whatever that personal choice might result in.

I stopped going out on the lake when life jackets became a requisite and fees/fines were being handed out like hot cakes. Someday I hope to have a property with a lake on it... though by the time we'd get it I'd probably be too old to use a jet ski.

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I am looking at boats. I used to have one and one of my best memories was putting the pedal to the metal and heading out into Lake Michigan until I couldn't see shore, turning off the motor and just sitting there rocking in the waves.
Yep. So nice to just be in the middle of a lake or out on the ocean rocking with the surface rhythm. Plus the sound of the water lapping on the hull is like a lullaby.
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Nav, Pano, Sport (Purchased 06/14 w/ 109,000 miles) (Sold 8/15 w/121,000 miles)


2006 X5 4.8is Build 11/05 Maintenance/Build Log
Nav, DSP, Pano, Running Boards, OEM Tow Hitch, Cold Weather Pckg (Purchased 08/15 w/ 90,500 miles)

2010 X5 35d Build 02/10
Nav, HiFi, 6 DVD, Sports Pckg, Cold Weather Pckg, HUD, CAS, Running Boards, Leather Dash, PDC, Pano (Purchased 03/17 w/ 136,120 miles)
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