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  #21  
Old 11-16-2021, 08:34 PM
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Certainly there are lots of other contributors around the world. The slowdown of the supply channels is both directly and indirectly linked to COVID. Not enough people to fill the jobs or expand working hours throughout the channels of distribution, among other problems. Demand goes up, supplies go down then prices go up. Take Covid out of the equation and the distribution channels and supply and demand will begin to normalize. If we can't then nationwide problems like the supply channels out of whack will persist. It can't be easier to get vaccinated and contribute to resolving this health crisis. I say if one is vaccinated they are part of the solution. If not, they are part of the problem.

IMO I am limited as to what I can safely do as long as COVID is not under control. The unvaccinated contribute to our inability to control COVID. Call it unnecessary complications, chronic irritations, and financial implications if you want. I think all of us have experienced those in our day to day routines. The worst part is it appears they are going to go on and on and on. We won't see much progress until at best the fall of 2022. As winter sets in and the holidays approach, COVID is gearing up for the opportunity to go on an infection frenzy. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...ases_community
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  #22  
Old 11-16-2021, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolimite39 View Post
The CDC and all of the pharma companies have stated that the vaccine does NOT prevent you from getting the virus and it does NOT prevent you from transmitting it.
Wait. This is a ‘stupid or evil’ situation.

All vaccines have failure rates. Only the anti-Vaxxers seem to have decided that ‘real vaccines’ are “100%”…so this COVID thing must not be a real vaccine.

Also, the rates at which people will GET COVID and TRANSMIT COVID are far different if you are vaccinated. So not sure why you reduce this to a binary? Just too much for you to comprehend, or something else?

So this retarded absolutism, almost always the hallmark of uncritical thinking, is just a game the antivaxers play.

If you dont want the risk of being vaccinated, then YOU can stay home. Or not fly, not work, not shop, not eat out, not go to school.

We wont miss you.
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  #23  
Old 11-17-2021, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
While the approval of the vaccine was expedited there was no compromise in the SOP to reach approval. The extent of immunity of those that have had COVID varies and declines over time. That is the reason the CDC recommends still getting vaccinated. Approval of medications are not and have not been a decades process. It is safer to be vaccinated than risking the documented long-term effects that can come from having COVID. There will never be an absolute certainty.
The same medications that don't have decades long approvals are the ones involved in massive lawsuits. Sure its a small portion but in general the way that the FDA and Big Pharma have shown in the past and in the case of Pfizer now that profits trump all else including the health and well being of the consumer. I am not skeptical of the scientists in the labs working on this stuff, I'm skeptical of the accountants and upper management pushing these things out the door while ignoring those same super smart scientists who are in the background saying "We don't know how safe it is yet". This is obviously an overgeneralization but its to get my viewpoint across.

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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
The percentage of deaths from breakthrough cases is extremely small. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-vaccines.html The number of breakthrough cases should not be used as a reason to not get vaccinated. Even if the percentage was ten times higher the risk of hospitalization, ICU stay or death is mountains higher for those unvaccinated.
Again, my biggest issue with the mandate is that one person's vaccination does not have a profound affect on those in direct contact with that person so why the mandate? Me being vaccinated does not stop you from getting the virus in most cases. Social responsibility coupled with proper PTO/Sick time structure would help more by allowing sick people to stay home.

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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
No restrictions or mandates would be considered if the unvaccinated were not the primary cause the virus continues to impact so many lives. I am free to drive whatever speed I want. OOPS I was going 90 when I rear ended your X5. What's the problem? You are free to stay off the roads. Would you like some 'mandates'd to see that I am less tempted to speed or be taken off the road?
I agree with the speeding scenario 100% it's why we have speed limits and why I take my speeding tickets without a shred of negativity toward the officer enforcing the traffic laws. However the situation with the vaccine is not exactly like you describe because regardless of the mandate (traffic laws) and adherence thereto (driving the speed limit) the same number of traffic incidents (transmission cases) WILL happen, and you will be driving the same vehicle, the only thing that will change is how protected I am. So OOPS you rear-ended my X5 in your X5 or OOPs you rear-ended my HUMVEE in your X5. All other factors stay the same. As for me rear-ending someone or not (being vaccinated), well that's me taking responsibility, this is what CW is talking about. Ultimately those of us that are NOT against the vaccine but ARE against the mandates want everyone to be more socially responsible which includes changing how society approaches things like sick time and child care and so many other things that make it impossible for a single mother to stay home with her sick kid because she just cant afford it. The system is broken, and vaccine mandates are a band-aid to a gun wound.

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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
I think the number of vaccinated people that are scared is extremely small. I would say they are well informed and justifiably, reasonably cautious. If God is brought into this what about do onto others as you would have them do unto you.
I guess you misunderstood me on this. If you are afraid of the infection having extreme effects then go get vaccinated, I fully support all those who are vaccinated because they are taking the steps they feel are necessary to protect themselves. But don't force me to sit in a pew and listen to scripture.

Definitely keeping faith out of this discussion (I guess you're not familiar with the musical stylings of Ice Cube).


Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Wait. This is a ‘stupid or evil’ situation.

All vaccines have failure rates. Only the anti-Vaxxers seem to have decided that ‘real vaccines’ are “100%”…so this COVID thing must not be a real vaccine.

Also, the rates at which people will GET COVID and TRANSMIT COVID are far different if you are vaccinated. So not sure why you reduce this to a binary? Just too much for you to comprehend, or something else?

So this retarded absolutism, almost always the hallmark of uncritical thinking, is just a game the antivaxers play.

If you dont want the risk of being vaccinated, then YOU can stay home. Or not fly, not work, not shop, not eat out, not go to school.

We wont miss you.
1. Personal attacks really help drive the point home in a discussion, really proves the breadth of one's ability to get his/her point across in a civilized manner, I bet you're just as bold in person.

2. I never mentioned failure rates. I stated that the vaccine does not affect transmission rates, guess I should've specified further. The CDC along with their counterparts from around the world have all stated that the current vaccines have a profound affect on the alpha variant while the transmission of all other variants is not greatly affected.

3. When I had the infection (in April of 2020) I stayed home, didn't fly, didn't eat out, didn't go to school, etc. Not because I had to be told so but because I take responsibility for my affect on the wellbeing of the people around me.

4. This is the farthest thing from abolitionism, it is in fact the measured positive effect vs the potential negative. Now on the off chance in 20 years my liver starts to malfunction as a direct result of the vaccination that I was basically forced to get because my freedoms to do basically anything were being forcibly removed even though I already had the natural immunity that comes with beating a viral infection, even though the effects of the virus on my entire family were minimal, even though I am responsible enough to know when to stay my sick #$% home. Do I come harvest your organs because you're in the camp that forced me to get an immunization that ultimately led to a much MORE severe health implication for me or do I go after your kids organs since yours will probably be in just as bad of shape as mine?


I really don't have a problem with mass vaccination, my problem is with how it is being rolled out and as I think most of us agree with how this whole situation is being used as political tool for the people (politicians) we would all like to see removed from existence (not killed, just maybe sent to a different dimension or something)
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  #24  
Old 11-17-2021, 04:26 PM
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[QUOTE=Nolimite39;1212962]The same medications that don't have decades long approvals are the ones involved in massive lawsuits. Sure its a small portion but in general the way that the FDA and Big Pharma have shown in the past and in the case of Pfizer now that profits trump all else including the health and well being of the consumer. I am not skeptical of the scientists in the labs working on this stuff, I'm skeptical of the accountants and upper management pushing these things out the door while ignoring those same super smart scientists who are in the background saying "We don't know how safe it is yet". This is obviously an overgeneralization but its to get my viewpoint across.
What vaccines are facing massive lawsuits?
What scientists are saying the vaccine is not safe yet?


Again, my biggest issue with the mandate is that one person's vaccination does not have a profound affect on those in direct contact with that person so why the mandate? Me being vaccinated does not stop you from getting the virus in most cases. Social responsibility coupled with proper PTO/Sick time structure would help more by allowing sick people to stay home.
The problem is not one person. If there was only one unvaccinated person there would not be a problem. Each unvaccinated individual is part of huge number that are the problem. The problem is that 1+1+1+1+1 and millions more are unvaccinated. The result is that COVID continues to be a national health crisis.

I agree with the speeding scenario 100% it's why we have speed limits and why I take my speeding tickets without a shred of negativity toward the officer enforcing the traffic laws. However the situation with the vaccine is not exactly like you describe because regardless of the mandate (traffic laws) and adherence thereto (driving the speed limit) the same number of traffic incidents (transmission cases) WILL happen, and you will be driving the same vehicle, the only thing that will change is how protected I am. So OOPS you rear-ended my X5 in your X5 or OOPs you rear-ended my HUMVEE in your X5. All other factors stay the same. As for me rear-ending someone or not (being vaccinated), well that's me taking responsibility, this is what CW is talking about. Ultimately those of us that are NOT against the vaccine but ARE against the mandates want everyone to be more socially responsible which includes changing how society approaches things like sick time and child care and so many other things that make it impossible for a single mother to stay home with her sick kid because she just cant afford it. The system is broken, and vaccine mandates are a band-aid to a gun wound.
You actually believe if everyone drove the speed limit the number of accidents would not decrease? That says that speeding has not been the cause of any accidents. We know that completely defies decades of statistics and is not true of COVID transmission statistics either. You support mass vaccination but don't get vaccinated because fed mandates may be coming. When in fact the more and longer people refuse to be vaccinated the more likely there will be fed, state and local mandates. The unvaccinated can control whether there will be mandates and how restricting they could be. I would like to hear how you think COVID is going to get under control if not by vaccination. I think the unvaccinated are clearly not being socially responsible as their behavior is negatively effecting others. Socially responsible is getting vaccinated.

I guess you misunderstood me on this. If you are afraid of the infection having extreme effects then go get vaccinated, I fully support all those who are vaccinated because they are taking the steps they feel are necessary to protect themselves. But don't force me to sit in a pew and listen to scripture. The vaccinated didn't do so out of fear. It was because they are protecting themselves, their family and the general public from a virus that can be deadly. And, because it is the right thing to do for all other citizens. Kinda like a patriotic duty.

Definitely keeping faith out of this discussion (I guess you're not familiar with the musical stylings of Ice Cube).
I avoid rap music as much as I can and don't have Ice Cube on my list as a learned source. To each their own.

1. Personal attacks really help drive the point home in a discussion, really proves the breadth of one's ability to get his/her point across in a civilized manner, I bet you're just as bold in person. False. Personal attacks are more often than not an indication one doesn't have anything to respond with that is constructive or it has become clear that that person is wrong so they lash out. Personal attacks end the chance of learning or finding common ground. Discussions and debates are not personal. When personal attacks enter the equation it is then an argument and no progress is made.

2. I never mentioned failure rates. I stated that the vaccine does not affect transmission rates, guess I should've specified further. The CDC along with their counterparts from around the world have all stated that the current vaccines have a profound affect on the alpha variant while the transmission of all other variants is not greatly affected.
Sorry if I misunderstood. The vaccine does reduce transmission rates. If one doesn't have COVID they can't infect others.
3. When I had the infection (in April of 2020) I stayed home, didn't fly, didn't eat out, didn't go to school, etc. Not because I had to be told so but because I take responsibility for my affect on the wellbeing of the people around me.
[COLOR="Blue"The CDC has stated the vaccine is safe. They also state you should get vaccinated even if you have had COVID. That would be for the wellbeing of others. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ctiveness.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-vaccines.html[/COLOR]

4. This is the farthest thing from abolitionism, it is in fact the measured positive effect vs the potential negative. Now on the off chance in 20 years my liver starts to malfunction as a direct result of the vaccination that I was basically forced to get because my freedoms to do basically anything were being forcibly removed even though I already had the natural immunity that comes with beating a viral infection, even though the effects of the virus on my entire family were minimal, even though I am responsible enough to know when to stay my sick #$% home. Do I come harvest your organs because you're in the camp that forced me to get an immunization that ultimately led to a much MORE severe health implication for me or do I go after your kids organs since yours will probably be in just as bad of shape as mine?
Natural immunity varies by individual and the severity of the infection. They are questions about how long any level of natural immunity lasts. The CDC recommends vaccination anyway. I have seen no expert input that the vaccine is not safe. That is intended to instill fear of the vaccine. It's just plain false. I view concern about 20 years from now as an unfounded excuse that can't be challenged because it will be years from now that we will know if there are longterm effects from the virus. The risk of X years from now is an unknown and pales in comparison to the risk of contracting COVID now.

I really don't have a problem with mass vaccination, my problem is with how it is being rolled out and as I think most of us agree with how this whole situation is being used as political tool for the people (politicians) we would all like to see removed from existence (not killed, just maybe sent to a different dimension or something)
This is, or a version of what many of the unvaccinated embrace--- While I don't have a problem with mass vaccination and I care about the wellbeing of others, I am not going to get vaccinated because I don't like the way it has been presented to me. The reality is no one is forcing the unvaccinated to be vaccinated. It has always been a recommendation and still is. It has also been that vaccination is the only way COVID will get under control. Everyone has had lots of time to get vaccinated and many haven't nor have they followed the guidelines. So what did they expect would happen?--- No big deal, do as you wish even though vaccination and mandates are the only proven broad based tools we currently have to curb COVID?
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  #25  
Old 11-17-2021, 06:02 PM
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Mandates or no mandates we are not eradicating CV19. Contraction and carrier status is still possible with vaccination. The rest of the world is not going to be vaccinated, and we aren't closing the borders any time soon to business and tourism. Admittedly, severity of infection drops and not all exposed will be carriers in the US. The only thing that changes with a mandate is you piss off a portion of the population. A not insignificant portion.

Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag at this point. Instead of focusing on the unvaccinated to direct derision and vitriol, aim it at those truly responsible for the pandemic in the first place. More and more info comes out that CV19 escaped from the Wuhan Novel Coronavirus Laboratory and that it occurred much earlier than we were led to believe according to the Washington Post. The outbreak was then covered up by China, the WHO, Fauci (under his direction the US sponsored work at the lab), the CDC, and of course the media. Now, we will never have conclusive evidence for any theory thanks to China's excellent ability to make people and documents disappear. But I'm fairly certain it was an accidental release from the lab.
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  #26  
Old 11-17-2021, 06:37 PM
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The last 4 items (number 1-4) were aimed at ard's very aggressive response not you BCred. The comment about personal attacks is sarcasm, again aimed at ard.

"The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed."

The above is directly quoted from https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ed-people.html

There are literally thousands of medicines recalled every year that carry FDA approvals because new studies are finding that they are directly linked to cancer. And all of these were deemed safe by the scientists when they hit the market, even with extensive laboratory research so excuse me for not trusting the FDA and the government that backs it.

The vaccine doesn't stop one from getting COVID or transmitting it to others so its moot to say "The vaccine does reduce transmission rates. If one doesn't have COVID they can't infect others."

Let me pose this question: If you are vaccinated and I am as well, I contract the virus and pass it to you, what is the outcome for you?

Similarly: If you are vaccinated and I am NOT, I contract the virus and pass it to you, with is the outcome for you?
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  #27  
Old 11-17-2021, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
Mandates or no mandates we are not eradicating CV19. Contraction and carrier status is still possible with vaccination. The rest of the world is not going to be vaccinated, and we aren't closing the borders any time soon to business and tourism. Admittedly, severity of infection drops and not all exposed will be carriers in the US. The only thing that changes with a mandate is you piss off a portion of the population. A not insignificant portion.
It does not take the rest of the world to be vaccinated to reach herd immunity in the US. Folks coming from other countries will not make COVID out of control if it is under control in US. Yes, lots of citizens will get angry if there are mandates. Sometimes it is necessary to protect others from themselves or because of their immovable stand on not getting vaccinated enacting mandates for the protection of others. The only reason I am in favor of mandates is I see enough of the unvaccinated as entrenched in their position that they won't get vaccinated regardless of the facts or how they are presented to them. It's easy to say mandates are bad but without a viable alternative it is just irrational white noise.
Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag at this point. Instead of focusing on the unvaccinated to direct derision and vitriol, aim it at those truly responsible for the pandemic in the first place. More and more info comes out that CV19 escaped from the Wuhan Novel Coronavirus Laboratory and that it occurred much earlier than we were led to believe according to the Washington Post. The outbreak was then covered up by China, the WHO, Fauci (under his direction the US sponsored work at the lab), the CDC, and of course the media. Now, we will never have conclusive evidence for any theory thanks to China's excellent ability to make people and documents disappear. But I'm fairly certain it was an accidental release from the lab.
Facts are just facts. Interpreting facts as criticism or contemptuous is taking it personal. I'm not being personal about any of this. Verifying the source for the virus or if somewhere along the line someone screwed up has nothing to do with curbing the spread of the virus.

It would be good for future prevention to find out how we got from the start and what mistakes were made along the way but that effort will do nothing to stop COVID infections. If that effort took away from getting COVID under control it would be a terrible decision. Of course you know what you posted about where COVID started, and if there were bad decisions or bad people along the way has not been verified.
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  #28  
Old 11-17-2021, 08:58 PM
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[QUOTE=[COLOR="Blue"]Nolimite39[/COLOR];1213006]The last 4 items (number 1-4) were aimed at ard's very aggressive response not you BCred. The comment about personal attacks is sarcasm, again aimed at ard.

"The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed."

The above is directly quoted from https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ed-people.html
I am aware of that position and agree.


There are literally thousands of medicines recalled every year that carry FDA approvals because new studies are finding that they are directly linked to cancer. And all of these were deemed safe by the scientists when they hit the market, even with extensive laboratory research so excuse me for not trusting the FDA and the government that backs it.
https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety-alerts
The vaccine doesn't stop one from getting COVID or transmitting it to others so its moot to say "The vaccine does reduce transmission rates. If one doesn't have COVID they can't infect others." It would be a moot point only if breakthrough cases were 100% of those vaccinated. Vaccines are not 100% effective and there are breakthrough infections though currently a very small percentage. Breakthrough case statistics are quite new so percentages vary. I have read studies that are as low as .1% to 2.5 %. The range indicates we don't have enough info to be accurate yet. Regardless, the percentage of breakthrough cases is extremely small. The breakthrough percentage will increase as more are vaccinated or if the vaccine becomes less effective from mutations. The possibility of more infectious and deadly variants increases the longer COVID is out of control.

Let me pose this question: If you are vaccinated and I am as well, I contract the virus and pass it to you, what is the outcome for you?
The chance you will infect me is very small but if I became a breakthrough case, because of being vaccinated the infection would be milder, very unlikely to require hospitalization, time in the ICU even more unlikely and death yet a smaller chance. If I am vaccinated and spend a day in a room with 50 infected people it is still unlikely I will be infected. In reality it would be impossible as I would not enter the room as I follow the guidelines. If you were not vaccinated would you spend the day in the room with 50 of your best friends?

Similarly: If you are vaccinated and I am NOT, I contract the virus and pass it to you, with is the outcome for you?
Results are the same as if you were vaccinated. It is highly unlikely I will be infected. However, not the same for you. The risk of being infected was higher so you might not have been infected at all if you had been vaccinated and the risk of being hospitalized or worse is much higher. Breakthrough case statistics are quite new so percentages vary. I have read studies that are as low as .1% to 2.5 %. The range indicates we don't have enough info to be accurate yet. Regardless, the percentage of breakthrough cases is extremely small.
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Old 11-17-2021, 11:36 PM
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Considering a large portion (~35%) of Ontario’s hospitalization are fully vaccinated it’s clear breakthrough cases are not uncommon and will only be more frequent as the vaccine effectiveness degrades. We clearly saw this happen in Israel, where you now must have a booster shot to be categorized as “fully vaccinated”.

A couple other metrics here in Ontario:
89% have at least one vaccine
85% are fully vaccinated

Currently in the hospital (not including ICU):
92 unvaccinated
16 partially vaccinated
68 fully vaccinated

Currently in the ICU:
62 unvaccinated
4 partially vaccinated
19 fully vaccinated

Source: https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data


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  #30  
Old 11-18-2021, 03:16 AM
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It's easy to say mandates are bad but without a viable alternative it is just irrational white noise.
That is an opinion. As is most of the discussion surrounding CV19 (including mine). I've come to the conclusion that trying to vaccinate it away is not the silver bullet some believe it to be. You've come to a different one, which is fine.

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Facts are just facts. Interpreting facts as criticism or contemptuous is taking it personal. I'm not being personal about any of this.
Oh, I wasn't taking it personal. I was speaking in the general sense of those proponents of mandates (not yourself I would hope) berating the unvaccinated as if they are incapable of looking at data and drawing a conclusion. There are doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc who are unvaccinated. Are they not intelligent enough to make a decision? I'm sure most understand the potential risks of remaining unvaccinated. If people believed covid killed even 10% of healthy people, this wouldn't be a discussion. For most, covid hits like the flu or is asymptomatic. Outlying cases may have lasting effects (we don't really know the extent of this yet) or need to seek medical treatment.

I've come to believe Covid is here to stay. My family is vaccinated and my kids will be soon. We'll likely all need boosters once or twice a year. We don't know long term effects of the vaccine, not that I believe there will be any. But it is still an unknown and I don't blame anyone not wanting to put it in their body if they aren't ready to. Or whatever there reason is, doesn't have to be fear of the unknown.

I would still like to know how the unvaccinated are infringing on the freedoms of others. Did not get a response to that minus the supply chain issue that I don't believe can be placed at their feet. If there is a compelling case, I'd like that info to continue forming my opinions.

Another year or so and all this talk will normalize and be a "covid/flu season is here, get your shots" ten second blurb on the local news.

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Verifying the source for the virus or if somewhere along the line someone screwed up has nothing to do with curbing the spread of the virus.
You are 100% correct. It does something that might be far more important, again IMO. It might shed light on who we should and should not be listening to or trust going forward. Remember when I said (in another thread that seems like ages ago now) Fauci, the WHO, and the CDC were lying when they said masks weren't effective? That turned out to be correct.

BTW, I also suffer permanent hand damage now due to the FDA's relaxing laws on the ethanol quality that could be used in hand sanitizers by manufacturers. Turns out benzene and methanol are really bad to be rubbing on your skin, even in relatively small quantities. They have since rolled that back (after a lab turned up those chemicals in products) and recommended issuing batch recalls on certain manufacturers. Thanks FDA. Much appreciated.
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